Why use anything but aerials?

[Meistermayo]

(In competitive play)


Tilts, smashes and the jab combo seem to have no place in melee since aerials are mobile along with having good knockback, good startup and great recovery.

Also, most characters NEVER use specials unless they are jump cancelable, aid recovery, a good projectile, or Rest.


If a group of people were to make a game catered towards competitive melee smashers, basing the roster heavily off of the top tiers in the game, why would the they even waste time considering smashes specials and tilts?

If they did try to come up with usable normals and specials, what kinds of strange uses would they have?

 

[Narpas_sword]

as a samus main.

LOL

 

[Meistermayo]

A samus main!

Im unfamiliar with samus. Im assuming she uses more grounded attacks and specials?

1. So what would she need to be a top tier character while still utilizing her same mvoes?
2. What keeps her from being top tier?
3. Can she be top tier if she had better air game?
4. Can she be top tier if she had better ground game?
5. Are grounded attacks and movements even useful in melee?
6. How dependant is she on projectiles?
7. Does she require tech skill?
8. Would a new form of tech skill that requires fast inputs and a new option in her gameplan improve her tier position?

Itd be super awesome if you or other samus mains could answer any of these questions

 

[Comet7]

almost all moves have their uses; they all have strengths and weaknesses. if you just use aerials, then you can usually be crouch canceled and punished, dash danced and punished, or just straight out stuffed. it would also be really predictable. this is just a really quick summation about aerials, fyi. anyway, the use and/or threat of other moves and what not and how well you do that in whatever way you chose will be what determines if you win or lose.

some quick pros and cons:
grab: goes through shield, can give a higher reward
jab: typically for jab resetting, quick pokes on shield, marth can zone with them, people can cover landings with them
smash: ending stocks, especially on people that you can't edgeguard like jiggs.

a lot of this stuff varies between characters. for example, since you're curious about samus, her grab sucks, but marth's is amazing. you would see a marth go for and land a lot more grabs than a samus. just learn about general character strategies and maybe read a few basic guides if you need to to get an understanding of this stuff.

 

[Marp]

Aerials have a lot more commitment time if you're not a fast faller. Also I couldn't imagine fighting a decent yoshi as marth without grab dtilt and fsmash. It would be a nightmare.

 

[Rachman]

When you jump you cede many options. CC, Shielding, DD, WD, Grabbing, etc are all gone when you jump. Jumping is a massive commitment and even moreso for those with poor SHs or floatier characters.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

(In competitive play)
Tilts, smashes and the jab combo seem to have no place in melee since aerials are mobile along with having good knockback, good startup and great recovery.

Also, most characters NEVER use specials unless they are jump cancelable, aid recovery, a good projectile, or Rest.

If a group of people were to make a game catered towards competitive melee smashers, basing the roster heavily off of the top tiers in the game, why would the they even waste time considering smashes specials and tilts?

If they did try to come up with usable normals and specials, what kinds of strange uses would they have?

Aerials cannot always achieve the same traits as grounded moves is really the simple answer.

-Aerials have variable start-up lag and ending lag. If your character takes 30 frames for air time, then you can either swing early and get a low start-up with higher ending lag or vice versa. You are still limited by that 30 frames.
-Grabs can get through shield aerials cannot. Nor can most characters chain ways to prevent retaliation with hits on shield.

Not to mention you have more variety on ground given 3 tilts, 4 smashes, 4 specials, grab, jab, and dash attack. Compared to the air with 5 aerials, 4 specials.

 

[Meistermayo]

Ive already understood the purpose of grabs. i should have included that in the initial post. Im more interested in the tilts and smashes.


Is it that these moves are more rarely seen in the neutral and are more obvious in certain scenarios?

For example jabs are mostly for jab resets and tilts like fox or marios utilt are used for juggling, whereas samus's is used for ledgeguarding. But in general, tilts seem to mostly be useful for lower tier characters. Even then, their laggy tilts are usually beaten out by l canceling top tiers shffling


as for tilts vs aerials, I suppose there are two ways to look at it

For a top tier like fox, wd ftilt is simply a lesser attack in comparison to shffl nair.

For a lower tier character like mario or samus, wd ftilt is a better option than their shffl nair.


Jumping may be a big commitment, but its used as a main staple of offense in competitive play, and overall isnt wd ftilt still a lesser option anyway? Usually more startup frames than fox's nair, always a ton more recovery than fox's l cancelled nair. Seems like for low tier character's tilts are even more of a commitment than shffl nair for fox, even though he gives up all defensive options. Top players rarely wavedash anything to get an attack in. Its either a jc grab or sh something-air.

.



So in this case, what does samus need to move up in the tiers? Should her tilts and smashes be better, having less recovery or the ability to jc them? Or should her aerials be better?

 

[Cu29]

A samus main!

Im unfamiliar with samus. Im assuming she uses more grounded attacks and specials?

1. So what would she need to be a top tier character while still utilizing her same mvoes?
2. What keeps her from being top tier?
3. Can she be top tier if she had better air game?
4. Can she be top tier if she had better ground game?
5. Are grounded attacks and movements even useful in melee?
6. How dependant is she on projectiles?
7. Does she require tech skill?
8. Would a new form of tech skill that requires fast inputs and a new option in her gameplan improve her tier position?

Itd be super awesome if you or other samus mains could answer any of these questions

Decently new, but still a Samus main here.

1. Probably a better Short Hop. Her aerials are pretty good, really good, but her short hop is so high they're rare to take advantage of near the ground.
2. Like previously mentioned, SH, and also a better grab. Her grab is really laggy and short ranged, not very practical. But really, over all, what keeps her from being top-tier is probably Marth and Shiek, who can deal with her missile spam, one of her better options, easily.
3. Yes. It's already OK, but it could be better.
4. Her ground game is fairly decent the way it is.
5. Yes. Samus has a lot of options on the ground, objectively more than in the air.
6. Depends on the matchup, and the player, but I know mine is usually pretty dependant on missiles. Her missiles do good damage and knockback and can be cancelled.
7. Not much. Her SH is one of the hardest, with a 3 or 4 frame jump squat. Short-hop missile cancelling isn't too hard. Platform missile cancelling takes practice. Sweet spotting ledges with the grapple. etc
8. Probably, depends on the use.

Hope this helps! Other Samus mains, please correct me if I've made a mistake, and add if there's something to add.

 

[soju]

It's rare to see any top player only use aerials and grabs. As other people said you make a commitment jumping, a competent player will know where you will land as soon as the aerial comes out, sure it's fast but it's also predictable. You have all these options don't stick to just aerials or you will get pooped on.

About foxes jab, it comes out in 2 frames and has a larger forward hitbox than shine that's all it needs.

But since we're talking about fox neutral, you got your anti air(utilt/jab/usmash) footsies/poke(f/dtilt) and your whiff punishes (everything) all pretty core in neutral

There's a lot more to it than what ever move comes out the fastest but you'll learn that as you play the game more and play better players

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Yea, please keep aerialing into my shieldgrab

 

[Meistermayo]

I feel like theres some sort of disconnect between what im thinking of and what you guys are thinking of. Did i post this in the smash 4 section or something? lets look at an example match to see what i may be mispercieving
http://youtu.be/a3EvVrX7jls
This is an analysis of the first game

Looked up a quick match between ppmd and mango. The general consensus in this thread is that aerials are extremely risky and competent players will certainly punish them.

In that case, why on earth do ppmd and mango sh nair or bair each other repeatedly throughout the match?
Most of the damage collected was from three things that i mentioned at the beginning:

Aerials
Special (ac laser or shine)
Grabs


NEVER does either player ftilt throughout the first match.
Utilts are used once or twice for juggling.
Fsmash usmash are used once or twice to try and kill or extend combos
Jab is used once, but is cc-ed and dtilted.
Dtilt is used twice as cc followup


This seems to qualify my argument that ground attacks are very situational and rare to see in a game. They are used for ledgeguarding sometimes, juggling, or cc followups

 

[Cu29]

I feel like theres some sort of disconnect between what im thinking of and what you guys are thinking of. Did i post this in the smash 4 section or something? lets look at an example match to see what i may be mispercieving
http://youtu.be/a3EvVrX7jls
This is an analysis of the first game

Looked up a quick match between ppmd and mango. The general consensus in this thread is that aerials are extremely risky and competent players will certainly punish them.

In that case, why on earth do ppmd and mango sh nair or bair each other repeatedly throughout the match?
Most of the damage collected was from three things that i mentioned at the beginning:

Aerials
Special (ac laser or shine)
Grabs


NEVER does either player ftilt throughout the first match.
Utilts are used once or twice for juggling.
Fsmash usmash are used once or twice to try and kill or extend combos
Jab is used once, but is cc-ed and dtilted.
Dtilt is used twice as cc followup


This seems to qualify my argument that ground attacks are very situational and rare to see in a game. They are used for ledgeguarding sometimes, juggling, or cc followups

Well of course. It's not that aerials are better, it has to do with the base mechanics of the game, and matchups. The higher % you have, the farther you fly. Generally, Marth players want their opponents above them; spacie players want their opponents off stage.

I think you're looking at the wrong thing. Aerials aren't better, they're just generally used more often because of how the game works.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

A samus main!

Im unfamiliar with samus. Im assuming she uses more grounded attacks and specials?

1. So what would she need to be a top tier character while still utilizing her same mvoes?
2. What keeps her from being top tier?
3. Can she be top tier if she had better air game?
4. Can she be top tier if she had better ground game?
5. Are grounded attacks and movements even useful in melee?
6. How dependant is she on projectiles?
7. Does she require tech skill?
8. Would a new form of tech skill that requires fast inputs and a new option in her gameplan improve her tier position?

Itd be super awesome if you or other samus mains could answer any of these questions

1. Lose the floatiness. It keeps her from getting combo'd a lot but if she could spam her nair like fox could shffl she could outzone so easy, her nair hitbox is is big and fast.

2. Ironically it's her ground game, her strongest game; she just can't grab or jab or tilt/aerial as fast as fox/falco can shine/shield-grab, as fast as sheik can oos fair, etc.

3. Her nair is her best move; her uair is disjointed, interrupts other moves but the problem is you have to be underneath them; her bair comboes from her dtilt and dsmash on fastfallers. In short no, it's her floatiness that's the problem.

4. Yes. She could easily counter shines, have a normal grab game (chain grabs?), etc.

5. "In Melee" is a different question but a good Samus is a well-grounded Samus, you need to control ground, stay in shield when approaching, etc.

6. She's not dependent on projectiles, her missiles act more like filler moves than anything, so while she does rely on them she relies less on the 'projectile' part of them. i.e. while disengaging, missile while falling off platform, in their face in the air (situational), most used as a 'chase' after you knock them off edge, e.g. after bairing/nairing falcon.

7. Samus is one of the most technical characters, relying on precision mostly to be played at a high level. Although she's not 'fast', her playstyle is very 'flow-y' and it requires a lot of tech skill to make and keep it that way. Tech showcases: Enter the Samus (Phanna) Active Artwork - Samus Edition (Silent Wolf)

8. No, she would still fall victim to the problems with her movement/floatiness/speed, not unsimilar to Ganon. Her tech would have to break the assumptions of Melee for her to be considered top tier given her current setup, say, invincibility during her recovery, or a powerbomb type move, or her 'speed booster'/shinespark attack. One of the odd advantages she has is her floatiness though, as well as her recovery - if you made her dair immediate and a spike, no one would...dair edgeguard her, because her bombs+grapple+repositioning would be death for anyone. So she could float escape from comboes and bait off-edge.


To answer your primary question though, it's because aerials don't have large enough and powerful enough hitboxes to do that much damage. If a sheik's or fox's nair actually stunned someone's shield a massive amount, the nair-shine engages would be tremendous, or if the hitbox was big and disjointed then you would have aerial battles all day. The hitboxes are too close to the body for aerials to be that important, or they aren't powerful enough to aren't big enough (e.g. falcon's nair).

If you approached with only aerials the other person would just shield you.

 

[Meistermayo]

Well of course. It's not that aerials are better, it has to do with the base mechanics of the game, and matchups. The higher % you have, the farther you fly. Generally, Marth players want their opponents above them; spacie players want their opponents off stage.

I think you're looking at the wrong thing. Aerials aren't better, they're just generally used more often because of how the game works.

But doesnt that make them better? If something is used more often due to the way a games mechanics come together, doesnt that make them the superior option then?

 

[Roukiske]

But doesnt that make them better? If something is used more often due to the way a games mechanics come together, doesnt that make them the superior option then?

Incorrect. Just because something is used often does not mean it will be the superior option. In Melee you have to understand what your best options are if you want to get passed lower levels. I can't stress enough that this obviously dependent on the character you are using (and your opponents). All moves work together in some way if the character allows it.

Marth has dtilt pokes/edgeguard with Fsmash kills. Roy has a combo starter with his Dtilt. Luigi can also start his offense with Dsmash and ftilts. Fox's dash attack is a lethal techchaser and he can combo into upsmash with many other moves. Etc. Not everything is useful, but you have to consider many factors in your decision making.

 

[kingPiano]

Incorrect. Just because something is used often does not mean it will be the superior option. In Melee you have to understand what your best options are if you want to get passed lower levels. I can't stress enough that this obviously dependent on the character you are using (and your opponents). All moves work together in some way if the character allows it.

Marth has dtilt pokes/edgeguard with Fsmash kills. Roy has a combo starter with his Dtilt. Luigi can also start his offense with Dsmash and ftilts. Fox's dash attack is a lethal techchaser and he can combo into upsmash with many other moves. Etc. Not everything is useful, but you have to consider many factors in your decision making.

Yep. It's true that L-canceled Aerials into follow ups usually allow frame traps and frame advantages, but....

There are also grounded moves that are near completely safe on shield if spaced correctly due to their range, push-back, and shield stun. For example Marth, Mario, Zelda and Pikachu's Fsmash, Pikachu and Fox's Upsmash, Peach's Dsmash (will probably end up shield poking anyways), Samus Jabs and tilts, etc

This is usually what separates scrubs from experienced players, through trial and error or studying they know what's safe in which situations. And always approaching from the air can make you predictable and easy to punish.

 

[Meistermayo]

Yep. It's true that L-canceled Aerials into follow ups usually allow frame traps and frame advantages, but....

There are also grounded moves that are near completely safe on shield if spaced correctly due to their range, push-back, and shield stun. For example Marth, Mario, Zelda and Pikachu's Fsmash, Pikachu and Fox's Upsmash, Peach's Dsmash (will probably end up shield poking anyways), Samus Jabs and tilts, etc

This is usually what separates scrubs from experienced players, through trial and error or studying they know what's safe in which situations. And always approaching from the air can make you predictable and easy to punish.

Incorrect. Just because something is used often does not mean it will be the superior option. In Melee you have to understand what your best options are if you want to get passed lower levels. I can't stress enough that this obviously dependent on the character you are using (and your opponents). All moves work together in some way if the character allows it.

Marth has dtilt pokes/edgeguard with Fsmash kills. Roy has a combo starter with his Dtilt. Luigi can also start his offense with Dsmash and ftilts. Fox's dash attack is a lethal techchaser and he can combo into upsmash with many other moves. Etc. Not everything is useful, but you have to consider many factors in your decision making.

Yep. It's true that L-canceled Aerials into follow ups usually allow frame traps and frame advantages, but....

There are also grounded moves that are near completely safe on shield if spaced correctly due to their range, push-back, and shield stun. For example Marth, Mario, Zelda and Pikachu's Fsmash, Pikachu and Fox's Upsmash, Peach's Dsmash (will probably end up shield poking anyways), Samus Jabs and tilts, etc

This is usually what separates scrubs from experienced players, through trial and error or studying they know what's safe in which situations. And always approaching from the air can make you predictable and easy to punish.

This is one part that i still dont get, the last part where you talk about scrubs vs veterans

Look at the sample i posted above.
If the shffl approach is so predictable and easy to punish, how come mango and ppmd in the example video use it to start most of their offense? Clearly approaching with an aerial is the superior approach, otherwise these top players would be smarter about it and do something else like space foxs usmash like you said.

Of course they dont always approach with aerials. Theyll still grab and shine and sh laser. However, never do they space usmash with a shield. Mango usmashes to try and extend a combo, but not in neutral.

I dont understand how the low tiers you mentioned have options that are equal to or better than shffl nair/bair/etc. these characters often lose to someone who picks a character with better aerials. If i look at some matches involving a high tier vs a low tier, would i find that the high tier player uses less aerials due to the opponents superior ground game?

Also, and i hope you can reply, are these characters then low tier due to their lack of air game or their underdeveloped ground game?

 

[kingPiano]

This is one part that i still dont get, the last part where you talk about scrubs vs veterans

Look at the sample i posted above.
If the shffl approach is so predictable and easy to punish, how come mango and ppmd in the example video use it to start most of their offense? Clearly approaching with an aerial is the superior approach, otherwise these top players would be smarter about it and do something else like space foxs usmash like you said.

Of course they dont always approach with aerials. Theyll still grab and shine and sh laser. However, never do they space usmash with a shield. Mango usmashes to try and extend a combo, but not in neutral.

I dont understand how the low tiers you mentioned have options that are equal to or better than shffl nair/bair/etc. these characters often lose to someone who picks a character with better aerials. If i look at some matches involving a high tier vs a low tier, would i find that the high tier player uses less aerials due to the opponents superior ground game?

Also, and i hope you can reply, are these characters then low tier due to their lack of air game or their underdeveloped ground game?

For each paragraph:

1) Spacies have a superior SHFFL so does Sheik so they can frame trap and shield pressure into a grab with aerials > grounded attacks (i.e. shine) and repeat. SO it's not all aerials, I don't get why you keep saying this. the neutral breaks down into pretty much half aerials half ground moves (incl. grabs) even for characters with amazing SHFFL options like spacies, marth, and sheik (In Peach's case Float cancelled into D-smash)

2) Yes actually you will see raw Up-smashes and F-smashes, especially ledgedash Up Smashes and Dashing Up smashes from Spacies. A pretty common combo is dash attack into Upsmash for Fox.....that's all ground and Mango for sure uses that combo. Mango also does INDEED do raw Up-smashes when percents get high enough usually invincible ledgedash Up-samshes, jab poke > Up-smash, or dashing Up-smashes. Leffen does a ton more and not even at kill percents sometimes. PPMD and Westballz are known for raw Falco F-smashes, PPU with Marth does pivot or just raw F-smashes (a lot of Marth's do)

3) Again Samus.....her whole game is reliant on ground jabs, tilts, and CC D-smash as well as Up-B OoS when SHFFL or shield pressured. Samus is bad in the air but still she can counter evenly with spacies who have a vastly superior air game. As for lower tiers Pikachu, Mario, and Zelda as an example can throw out well spaced F-mashes and not get punished for them unless the opponent read it preemptively or wasn't shielding and somehow did a FH over (which is rare to see.) Bowser and DK's Up-B OoS can counter any aerial of SHFFL pressure from spacies, as another example.

4) Low tier placement has to do with a lot of things. At the top of the list are air and ground speed, range, OPTIONS, combos and set ups, and KO potential in the air and on ground (overall move power and lag).

 

[Meistermayo]

For each paragraph:

1) Spacies have a superior SHFFL so does Sheik so they can frame trap and shield pressure into a grab with aerials > grounded attacks (i.e. shine) and repeat. SO it's not all aerials, I don't get why you keep saying this. the neutral breaks down into pretty much half aerials half ground moves (incl. grabs) even for characters with amazing SHFFL options like spacies, marth, and sheik (In Peach's case Float cancelled into D-smash)

2) Yes actually you will see raw Up-smashes and F-smashes, especially ledgedash Up Smashes and Dashing Up smashes from Spacies. A pretty common combo is dash attack into Upsmash for Fox.....that's all ground and Mango for sure uses that combo. Mango also does INDEED do raw Up-smashes when percents get high enough usually invincible ledgedash Up-samshes, jab poke > Up-smash, or dashing Up-smashes. Leffen does a ton more and not even at kill percents sometimes. PPMD and Westballz are known for raw Falco F-smashes, PPU with Marth does pivot or just raw F-smashes (a lot of Marth's do)

3) Again Samus.....her whole game is reliant on ground jabs, tilts, and CC D-smash as well as Up-B OoS when SHFFL or shield pressured. Samus is bad in the air but still she can counter evenly with spacies who have a vastly superior air game. As for lower tiers Pikachu, Mario, and Zelda as an example can throw out well spaced F-mashes and not get punished for them unless the opponent read it preemptively or wasn't shielding and somehow did a FH over (which is rare to see.) Bowser and DK's Up-B OoS can counter any aerial of SHFFL pressure from spacies, as another example.

4) Low tier placement has to do with a lot of things. At the top of the list are air and ground speed, range, OPTIONS, combos and set ups, and KO potential in the air and on ground (overall move power and lag).

Cool, thanks for replying, as this is very engaging. i enjoy talking with you. Im not so much trying to force an opinion as trying to reach an understanding.

For 1 I did not necessarily say it was all aerials, i was mainly emphasizing the lack of tilts and smashes. I stated that grabs are used a lot as well as sh lasers and shines.

Nothing for 2

For 3, can any of these low tiers succeed against spacies and shfflers? While they do have some options as you clearly mention, it doesnt seem to be enough to fight against the top tiers. Is this due more to their overall options?

For 4, (this is practically the next tangent) lets assume little mac is in melee, and hes a 1:1 copy from sm4sh except for having melee tech skill available to him. Assuming he has his kill power, high priority normals, perhaps ftilt as a kill move due to melees weaker recovery, and armor on his smashes, he would be unprecedentedly powerful. One may even have to take some tools away to make him fair. Now heres my point:

What it seems to me is that melee has two main aspects that lead to its success. One is its complex inputs, and the other is its watchability. In melee shock n awe is usually a viable strategy. The top tiers in the game are the fastest and start most of their offense with an energetic shffl attack or grab, which leads to a long and flashy combo. Would putting a ground character like little mac in the game based on the ground make the game lose a bit of watchability or complex inputs

Instead of shffling he would dash dance, and wavedash. His aerials are not as usable and so players would input less as they use safe dash attacks or wavedash back fsmash.

Would little mac be as watchable and respectable as traditional melee fighters or would new tech skill need to be added?

Thanks again

 

[Roukiske]

What it seems to me is that melee has two main aspects that lead to its success. One is its complex inputs, and the other is its watchability. In melee shock n awe is usually a viable strategy. The top tiers in the game are the fastest and start most of their offense with an energetic shffl attack or grab, which leads to a long and flashy combo. Would putting a ground character like little mac in the game based on the ground make the game lose a bit of watchability or complex inputs

Instead of shffling he would dash dance, and wavedash. His aerials are not as usable and so players would input less as they use safe dash attacks or wavedash back fsmash.

Would little mac be as watchable and respectable as traditional melee fighters or would new tech skill need to be added?

Thanks again

Ah okay, that's a decent question. Given his power I would assume his shield stun would be adequate enough to have safe-ish grounded pokes. His aerials would be weak, but in a game with Melee physics they would probably result in knockdown which gives so many opportunities. If there were a tech chase game in Sm4sh the game would be much different I assure you (and probably more hype). A grounded character like Mac could be a faster Roy I suppose as his aerials are weak, but are enough to inflict hitstun. Watching tech chases is one of the joys of Melee and I think his play style would still be fun to watch if the player was good with him (combo or tech chase into KO punches). Though his recovery would be balls so obviously he will need a few Melee tweaks otherwise he would be crap tier.

 

[Narpas_sword]

For 3, can any of these low tiers succeed against spacies and shfflers? While they do have some options as you clearly mention, it doesnt seem to be enough to fight against the top tiers. Is this due more to their overall options?