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Why Ness will be in SSBB

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zdude255

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
12
Some people are saying that Ness has no chance of being in Brawl. I don't think this is true and am going to take a look at some of the evidence and arguements on both sides.

Common arguments against Ness

Lucas Special Moves Update
"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar. They are from the same family of PK users."

A lot of people have taken this sentence to be the end all deconfirmation of Ness. I don't think it is. The main reason is that Ness hasn't appeared in Brawl, because he hasn't been announced. They aren't going to spoil another character in Lucas' update, but they need to mention Ness, so we get this little bit that acknowledges Ness was in SSB+Melee, but leaves his status in Brawl a mystery.

He would be too similar to Lucas.
The status of clones is up in the air as for Brawl. Those who say Brawl won't have clones say that since Lucas has Ness' moveset, Ness doesn't have a place.

Well, Sakurai sorta shoots this one down right after that: "But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves." That alone makes Lucas dissimilar from Ness more than any of the Melee clones were.

Evidence in support of Ness

Franklin Badge
Revealed before Lucas was announced, the Franklin Badge also appears in Mother 3, but it got its start as an important item in Earthbound, Paula gave it to Ness to aid in the battle against Carpainter.

Lucas is cloneish
Lucas' special moves are fundamentally Ness' specials. But they all differ enough to give him a different playstyle. In Melee, Dr. Mario was a slower, more powerful Mario, with slightly different specials. This is true of Lucas:

B: Ness' PK Flash was slow but powerful, Lucas' move is PK Freeze, which has a freezie effect.
Forward+B: Ness' PK Fire goes at a downward angle while Lucas' goes straight.
Down+B: Ness shields all around him. Lucas shields in the direction he is facing.

Lucas' update goes so far to show that he is different from Ness, that it definitely leaves room for Ness.

Additionally, two of Ness' signature physical moves, the Bat and the Yoyo are not a part of Lucas' arsenal.

Onett

Onett is Ness' level from SSBM. There is no Onett in Mother 3, and all the details from Earthbound, such as the meteorite that Ness investigates return. If you still don't think this level's connection to one and only one character is enough, I would argue that if Ness is not going to be a playable character, why wouldn't he be added in the background somewhere? The level has been demoed quite enough to observe that Ness isn't in it. I suppose there's the possibility of him being an AT, but Ness doesn't really have any moves that would make an interesting AT.

Final Observations

The Dojo is a promotional website - New characters promote the game much better than old ones.

The sole job of dojo is to generate hype and interest about Brawl. New characters do that. If Ness had been unveiled at Spaceworld, no one would have given it a second thought. Even if Ness were unveiled on Dojo tomorrow, it wouldn't generate any buzz outside of the Smash Bros community, who are pretty much already excited about the game. Returning characters to Smash Bros are like the pause screen, not very exciting, but important to the game.

Ness has been a hidden character since the very first Smash Bros game. And just like Jigglypuff, Luigi and Captain Falcon, he hasn't been announced and probably won't be until Japan gets the game on the 31st. However you'd have to be insane to argue against those three (especially Falcon given Red Alloy + Samurai Goroh), so give it a second thought before dismissing Ness entirely.
 

Mario77

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
186
I don't even care for Ness but I think hes gona show up somewere for sure. Well just my gut feeling but eh.
 

finalark

SNORLAX
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
7,829
Location
Tucson, Arizona
..... your logic in the "until now" argument is broken. It sounds like you only count character updates, so by going by your logic that would mean....

Olimar wasn't in Brawl until the update, they must have just added him in this about a week ago!

Honestly, what do the words "until now" mean to you?

And welcome to SWF!

But honestly, all these threads become are flame-offs so....
 

Wyvernkni

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
67
Location
The World That Never Was
Frankly, the "Until Now" part still holds me. The "Up until now" comment is pretty much saying:

"In the past games their was a character named Ness, but not now. This character names Lucas has a similar moveset as his though."

That's the way I interpret it. In favor of Ness is Onett however, but the past stage could just be there to amuse us...
 

Chepe

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
1,146
The thing is, Sakurai himself says that they dont have the same A moves...

I wont be surprised what happens either way. Both sides should acknowledge the possibility of the other's opinion.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
5,164
Under normal circumstances, I'd just leave you alone, but some of the logic you're using irks me enough to post.

Evidence in support of Ness

Franklin Badge
Revealed before Lucas was announced, the Franklin Badge also appears in Mother 3, but it got its start as an important item in Earthbound, Paula gave it to Ness to aid in the battle against Carpainter.
This isn't "evidence". This is just something that means nothing. It doesn't hint at Ness' inclusion nor his absence.

Additionally, two of Ness' signature physical moves, the Bat and the Yoyo are not a part of Lucas' arsenal.
Lucas DOES have a bat as part of his arsenal (or at least a stick or something). And we don't know his entire moveset yet, so he could have a yo-yo too. Even if he doesn't, it's not like having a yo-yo ensures Ness a spot. Brawl doesn't have a mandatory yo-yo weilder niche to fill.

Onett

Onett is Ness' level from SSBM. There is no Onett in Mother 3, and all the details from Earthbound, such as the meteorite that Ness investigates return. If you still don't think this level's connection to one and only one character is enough, I would argue that if Ness is not going to be a playable character, why wouldn't he be added in the background somewhere? The level has been demoed quite enough to observe that Ness isn't in it.
Why SHOULD Ness appear in the background? At that rate you might as well say "Baby Bowser doesn't appear in the background of any of the Mario stages. He must be playable!" Ness' lack of appearance in one location doesn't confirm his appearance in a different location.

On top of that, Onett is a past stage. When talking about Hyrule Temple as a past stage, Sakurai pointed out how he was trying to make the replica as similar to the one seen in Melee as possible. Why should Onett be any different? Why not just leave the stage as we remember it? Like I said before, why SHOULD Ness be in the background?

The Dojo is a promotional website - New characters promote the game much better than old ones.

The sole job of dojo is to generate hype and interest about Brawl. New characters do that. If Ness had been unveiled at Spaceworld, no one would have given it a second thought. Even if Ness were unveiled on Dojo tomorrow, it wouldn't generate any buzz outside of the Smash Bros community, who are pretty much already excited about the game. Returning characters to Smash Bros are like the pause screen, not very exciting, but important to the game.
Yet there are 13 veterans listed on the dojo. They outnumber the newcomers, actually. You're right, new characters DO generate more buzz, but Sakurai still updates us with returning characters just as often as he does new characters, so your point is moot.

Ness has been a hidden character since the very first Smash Bros game.
Ness hasn't been a hidden character since the first Smash game; he was a hidden character only in the first Smash game. In Melee, he was a starter. As was Captain Falcon.

And just like Jigglypuff, Luigi and Captain Falcon, he hasn't been announced and probably won't be until Japan gets the game on the 31st. However you'd have to be insane to argue against those three (especially Falcon given Red Alloy + Samurai Goroh), so give it a second thought before dismissing Ness entirely.
You may be right.

I'm not here to trash Ness. I wouldn't mind seeing him again. But this thread doesn't deliver on it's title at all.
 

zdude255

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
12
You do have some valid points.

I would say that the Franklin Badge and Onett hint at Ness in the same way the Samurai Goroh AT hints at Captain Falcon. Both were announced ages ago as well. Sakurai is too good to let hard evidence out, but there's a ton of circumstantial evidence that adds up to a lot of inclination for his inclusion.

The inclusion of Ness in Onett would make some people happy if he can't be playable, but I suppose that's a weak argument. The stage is really just tied to Ness and not Lucas though . It seems odd to have a themed stage without a supporting character.

Even if he has a stick or a yoyo, I'm just saying that there's so many small differences to the specials and big differences in the physicals to make him a clone of Ness and not Ness incarnate.


Most of the veterans listed on Dojo are pretty much a given. Really the only slightly surprising update was the return of Ice Climbers. It was no secret that Bowser, DK, and Yoshi would return. The real dojo buzz was from updates like Olimar, Sonic and Diddy.

The point of veterans on dojo is to assure you that you can still bash each other with all your favorite Nintendo stars, it's the basic appeal of the Smash Bros series. Besides Ice Climbers, there haven't been any veterans on dojo that aren't major Nintendo icons. (possibly Sheik, but they really only unveiled that because of having to reveal Zelda's Down+B IMO)

The point is they've revealed Ike over Marth, PT over Puff(/Mewtwo?), Lucas over Ness, and nothing over Capt. Falcon because he's not popular outside of Smash Bros. (sorry, but it's true, GX sold terribly for such a great game)

Still a lot going for Ness. The title is probably a bit exaggerated, but there's enough evidence for Ness that it doesn't look coincidental.

Looks like we have two more weeks of character flamewars, then we can start arguing about tiers.
 
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