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Why Mac Loses To Bowser

Rekzius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Norway
Look, i used to think mac won this matchup at one point. However it is now very clear to me that mac loses this matchup. And here is my reasoning……… I'm not good with intros.


“The main issue”

First look at this:



Bowser grab range is HUGE*, and his Pivot grab is even longer. This is the main reason why i think this MU is hard for Mac. Mac has a really hard time dealing with grabs. Its really that simple........OK fine there is a lot more to it than that. But, really this is the main reason.


(*I know the guy in the gif input a roll about one frame before bowser grabs him, but still that is a lot of grab range. Neither is the normal grab the main point anyway.)*


Bowser used to get pretty much nothing of his grab, Only about 12% from a down-throw or any of his other throws.. As most of you know his up-throw was changed in 1.1.3 It now combos into nair at low percents and up-air at higher percents. This deals a LOT of damage, the hitboxes are a bit janky so damage may differ. It can however deal around 20-30% in one combo. That is a lot of damage for a lightweight like mac. At higher percents it also combos into up-air. This can kill you extremely early, I have been killed as early as 70% because of Bowser rage.

"But, i thought they nerfed his up-throw in 1.1.4"

Yes this is true, however it barely matters at all. Mac is the perfect weight,fall speed and gravity to killed by this combo. The range for this move killing little mac is actually huge even after the nerf.
No rage 88%-122%
I was not able to test with rage, but it mostly scales downwards both in kill and hit percentage.


Landing against bowser

It's no secret that bowser has a hard time landing, it is by far his biggest shortcoming, but Mac possibly has an even harder time landing in this matchup in particular. At least bowser has the option to land with an hitbox. Mac has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game by far. Mac really has no other choice than to fall and hope for the best. Bowser can cover almost all of Mac's landing options with a pivot grab because of its ridiculous range. If you try to counter on landing grab will obviously beat it out. Mac`s hitboxes come out so close to his body that pivot grab will outrange it by a landslide. Super armour does not work on grabs obviously. Your best option is to try to perfectly time a spot dodge or roll on landing and hope for the best.

This is actually quite hard to do, and may result in you air dodging into the ground. And even then it still takes a few frames to activate so it might not even work at all.

And if he does grab you on landing, guess what. You are back in the exact same situation you just were in. Except you just took another 25 damage or you just lost a stock.

This would be fine enough if it wasn't for the fact that up throw to up air put you in the worst situation possible.

As you can see in the gif, after bowser nairs you you are still pretty close to him and he can follow up with an up air. Unless you want to take even more damage and get put even higher up in the air you have to jump or air dodge. And even then he can read your jump or air dodge and try to catch your landing again.

There is not really a lot you can do to land safely, but I do have some tips:

  • Mix up your fast falling and normal falling (Don't always rush for the ground. This might throw their grab timing off)

  • Never counter on landing, not only will grab just beat this out, but you might get read and f-smashed.

  • Go for the ledge always if you can.

  • Try to not go to FD against bowser, while mac usually likes FD i just dont feel its worth it in this MU. Battlefield is by far your best bet. Because the platforms can help you land.

  • Air dodging after the first hit can be useful, if he does not read it you should be able to nair him and recover.


Mac bowser Neutral

You would believe that mac would win neutral against bowser. Well…….. He kinda does, but not really at the same time. It's weird, Mac has by far the better frame data of the two. And still Bowser somehow seems to excel in this match up. Bowsers grab range will allow him to punish a lot more of your attacks, so your spacing has to be spot on. Bowser has a trait named “tough guy”. What this means is that he will not take any hitstun form moves that deal less than 1% with some exceptions. This makes your jab almost useless. You can use the gentlemen hitt, but it's not nearly as good as your rapid jab, and it's also negative on hit from about 0-40%. So is d-tilt to side-b at about the same percents. Also Macs jab is super trigger sensitive, this is a known problem but it really shines here. Sometimes the rapid will come out even without you wanting it too. Bowsers range is actually really big his jab and tilts covers a lot of range. Lots of his attacks are also intangible. This makes it really hard to approach Bowser. And seeing how you are Little mac you are the one who is going to be approaching the most. His firebreath is stupidly annoying to deal with, seeing how you can`t get over it. This will often lead to you taking unnecessary damage if he catches you off guard. You can jolt over it, but if they angle the fire up you will get trapped. Your best bet is to wait it out and not challenge it at all.


A lot of people say that you just have to catch his landings, but that is a 50/50 at best. Because of his down air/ Down-b Most other characters would have gone for an up-air, in a situation like that. Mac can't do that. Well he can but…… ya know. All Mac can do is try to read where he is going to land and if he is going to use a “Free landing option” If you let go of your up-smash to early you will get hit.

Bowser really only needs 5-6 grabs and that is a stock because of Mac's stupid weight and gravity. Sometimes even less depending on rage. And on the other side Bowser lives forever, Don't be surprised if he lives to about 140%. While mac has good kill confirms, they are not always the safest.


Over all:

  • Bowser only needs 5-6 grabs to kill Mac.

  • Up-throw to up-air is true on Mac almost always.

  • Bowser is great at capitalizing on Macs awful disadvantage state.

  • Bowser has better range than Mac.

  • His pivot grab beats out pretty much all of Mac's offensive options.

  • Mac can't really deal with good grabs.

  • Bowser lives far longer than Mac, and gets all of that juicy rage.

  • Covering Bowsers landing is hard for mac, because of a lack of good aerials.

  • Mac has some bad hurtbox shifting, most notably his d-tilt.

I am not saying this matchup it impossible for mac, you just have to play very defensively. Our best player where i live plays bowser so i am well versed in the matchup. I hope this brought some light to a matchup that otherwise gets taken for granted. Thanks for reading!
 
Last edited:

jet56

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
442
You know, on flat stages this is true. But any stage with platforms will nullify the landing issue quite a bit. And if you are on a flat stage, its just as hard for either of you to land.

If you want to catch his landing, you wait for him to land, keep in mind if he used his double jump or not, and when he lands, either with an aerial, airdodge, or command grab, you space a PP utilt to knock him back in the air. If he lands with an aerial, you shield and punish (except against bowser Bomb, just roll away and punish with usmash). If he airdodges, great you punish. If he tries to land with a command grab, great, you space away from it and punish (ftilt or PP utilt.) If he double jumps, you follow and wait for him to commit to an option. Be efficient, be aware and attentive, and space properly. Then he can't land. The same goes for bowser against mac when mac is in the air. So it's pretty much the same. And, if there are platforms involved, both characters will have an easier time landing.

Regarding Bowser's grab range, you overshoot it. His grab range is large, but so is his hurtbox, meaning you can space your tilts very easy on this character. I find his tilts and jab to be more threatening reach wise than his grab in all honesty, as they reach farther than his grab. Here is the funny thing, Bowsers fastest option to punish a hit on shield is his OoS Up B (comes out frame 6, OoS takes 3 frames due to the jump you have to input, making it 9 frames.) Little mac's DAfsmash and spaced dtilt are both -11 on shield, meaning bowser can only punish a hit on his shield with whirling fortress, which he must be frame perfect in, and hope you aren't spacing the move well (since while the hitbox does come out frame 6, he does have to move toward you to actually hit you, taking up more frames and time, and that's keeping in mind he does so frame perfect.) Essentially, you can abuse a bowser shielding by just spamming Spaced Dtilts, and then baiting an OoS up B out of him, which you can then punish. On the other hand, we can punish everything bowser hits our shield with, Due to having a much better OoS up B option, and a frame 4 ftilt that has absurd range (and nice killing power as well.) His safest option his the first hit of his jab, which is a -8 on shield. Meaning it can only be punished by Mac's buffered jab or OoS up B. everything else is very punishable by Mac's Ftilt alone. And it's very safe for us to drop shield jab, while it is very unsafe for bowser to go for an OoS up B if he misses the small punish window or we bait the option.

Im not going to disagree that it is hard to land against Bowser, but it is the same both ways, equally so. And this only truly is regarded on a Flat stage like FD or town&City in transition. Also, you even undershoot Mac's killing power. In training mode, Bowser dies to a Sour spot Usmash on the ground at 117%. This does not account for freshness, rage, or the fact he would normally be in the air. Bowser can still die to things like Ftilt and Smashes Below 100% under the right circumstances, and Dtilt>Up B will kill at 130% (again, no rage, freshness, etc.). While Bowser can live longer than most, he will be benefiting from Rage as much as Mac will be. The difference? Mac has safer killing tools to kill bowser with in neutral. Barring the Uthrow to Up B (which has a very small window now btw, even regarding mac's weight and fall speed), little mac has nor real safe killing option to throw out.
 

Yosefu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
9
D-tilt> Nair> footstool works against Bowser consistently, so you can get good damage off of a jablock. You can even Nair> footstool multiple times for more damage and possibly a kill with platforms.
 

Rekzius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Norway
D-tilt> Nair> footstool works against Bowser consistently, so you can get good damage off of a jablock. You can even Nair> footstool multiple times for more damage and possibly a kill with platforms.
That is a actualy escapeable by mashing jump or airdodge, it only really works on DK and even then it is escapeable by SDI
 
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