Look, i used to think mac won this matchup at one point. However it is now very clear to me that mac loses this matchup. And here is my reasoning……… I'm not good with intros.
“The main issue”
First look at this:
Bowser grab range is HUGE*, and his Pivot grab is even longer. This is the main reason why i think this MU is hard for Mac. Mac has a really hard time dealing with grabs. Its really that simple........OK fine there is a lot more to it than that. But, really this is the main reason.
(*I know the guy in the gif input a roll about one frame before bowser grabs him, but still that is a lot of grab range. Neither is the normal grab the main point anyway.)*
Bowser used to get pretty much nothing of his grab, Only about 12% from a down-throw or any of his other throws.. As most of you know his up-throw was changed in 1.1.3 It now combos into nair at low percents and up-air at higher percents. This deals a LOT of damage, the hitboxes are a bit janky so damage may differ. It can however deal around 20-30% in one combo. That is a lot of damage for a lightweight like mac. At higher percents it also combos into up-air. This can kill you extremely early, I have been killed as early as 70% because of Bowser rage.
"But, i thought they nerfed his up-throw in 1.1.4"
Yes this is true, however it barely matters at all. Mac is the perfect weight,fall speed and gravity to killed by this combo. The range for this move killing little mac is actually huge even after the nerf.
No rage 88%-122%
I was not able to test with rage, but it mostly scales downwards both in kill and hit percentage.
Landing against bowser
It's no secret that bowser has a hard time landing, it is by far his biggest shortcoming, but Mac possibly has an even harder time landing in this matchup in particular. At least bowser has the option to land with an hitbox. Mac has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game by far. Mac really has no other choice than to fall and hope for the best. Bowser can cover almost all of Mac's landing options with a pivot grab because of its ridiculous range. If you try to counter on landing grab will obviously beat it out. Mac`s hitboxes come out so close to his body that pivot grab will outrange it by a landslide. Super armour does not work on grabs obviously. Your best option is to try to perfectly time a spot dodge or roll on landing and hope for the best.
This is actually quite hard to do, and may result in you air dodging into the ground. And even then it still takes a few frames to activate so it might not even work at all.
And if he does grab you on landing, guess what. You are back in the exact same situation you just were in. Except you just took another 25 damage or you just lost a stock.
This would be fine enough if it wasn't for the fact that up throw to up air put you in the worst situation possible.
As you can see in the gif, after bowser nairs you you are still pretty close to him and he can follow up with an up air. Unless you want to take even more damage and get put even higher up in the air you have to jump or air dodge. And even then he can read your jump or air dodge and try to catch your landing again.
There is not really a lot you can do to land safely, but I do have some tips:
Mac bowser Neutral
You would believe that mac would win neutral against bowser. Well…….. He kinda does, but not really at the same time. It's weird, Mac has by far the better frame data of the two. And still Bowser somehow seems to excel in this match up. Bowsers grab range will allow him to punish a lot more of your attacks, so your spacing has to be spot on. Bowser has a trait named “tough guy”. What this means is that he will not take any hitstun form moves that deal less than 1% with some exceptions. This makes your jab almost useless. You can use the gentlemen hitt, but it's not nearly as good as your rapid jab, and it's also negative on hit from about 0-40%. So is d-tilt to side-b at about the same percents. Also Macs jab is super trigger sensitive, this is a known problem but it really shines here. Sometimes the rapid will come out even without you wanting it too. Bowsers range is actually really big his jab and tilts covers a lot of range. Lots of his attacks are also intangible. This makes it really hard to approach Bowser. And seeing how you are Little mac you are the one who is going to be approaching the most. His firebreath is stupidly annoying to deal with, seeing how you can`t get over it. This will often lead to you taking unnecessary damage if he catches you off guard. You can jolt over it, but if they angle the fire up you will get trapped. Your best bet is to wait it out and not challenge it at all.
A lot of people say that you just have to catch his landings, but that is a 50/50 at best. Because of his down air/ Down-b Most other characters would have gone for an up-air, in a situation like that. Mac can't do that. Well he can but…… ya know. All Mac can do is try to read where he is going to land and if he is going to use a “Free landing option” If you let go of your up-smash to early you will get hit.
Bowser really only needs 5-6 grabs and that is a stock because of Mac's stupid weight and gravity. Sometimes even less depending on rage. And on the other side Bowser lives forever, Don't be surprised if he lives to about 140%. While mac has good kill confirms, they are not always the safest.
Over all:
I am not saying this matchup it impossible for mac, you just have to play very defensively. Our best player where i live plays bowser so i am well versed in the matchup. I hope this brought some light to a matchup that otherwise gets taken for granted. Thanks for reading!
“The main issue”
First look at this:
Bowser grab range is HUGE*, and his Pivot grab is even longer. This is the main reason why i think this MU is hard for Mac. Mac has a really hard time dealing with grabs. Its really that simple........OK fine there is a lot more to it than that. But, really this is the main reason.
(*I know the guy in the gif input a roll about one frame before bowser grabs him, but still that is a lot of grab range. Neither is the normal grab the main point anyway.)*
Bowser used to get pretty much nothing of his grab, Only about 12% from a down-throw or any of his other throws.. As most of you know his up-throw was changed in 1.1.3 It now combos into nair at low percents and up-air at higher percents. This deals a LOT of damage, the hitboxes are a bit janky so damage may differ. It can however deal around 20-30% in one combo. That is a lot of damage for a lightweight like mac. At higher percents it also combos into up-air. This can kill you extremely early, I have been killed as early as 70% because of Bowser rage.
"But, i thought they nerfed his up-throw in 1.1.4"
Yes this is true, however it barely matters at all. Mac is the perfect weight,fall speed and gravity to killed by this combo. The range for this move killing little mac is actually huge even after the nerf.
No rage 88%-122%
I was not able to test with rage, but it mostly scales downwards both in kill and hit percentage.
Landing against bowser
It's no secret that bowser has a hard time landing, it is by far his biggest shortcoming, but Mac possibly has an even harder time landing in this matchup in particular. At least bowser has the option to land with an hitbox. Mac has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game by far. Mac really has no other choice than to fall and hope for the best. Bowser can cover almost all of Mac's landing options with a pivot grab because of its ridiculous range. If you try to counter on landing grab will obviously beat it out. Mac`s hitboxes come out so close to his body that pivot grab will outrange it by a landslide. Super armour does not work on grabs obviously. Your best option is to try to perfectly time a spot dodge or roll on landing and hope for the best.
This is actually quite hard to do, and may result in you air dodging into the ground. And even then it still takes a few frames to activate so it might not even work at all.
And if he does grab you on landing, guess what. You are back in the exact same situation you just were in. Except you just took another 25 damage or you just lost a stock.
This would be fine enough if it wasn't for the fact that up throw to up air put you in the worst situation possible.
As you can see in the gif, after bowser nairs you you are still pretty close to him and he can follow up with an up air. Unless you want to take even more damage and get put even higher up in the air you have to jump or air dodge. And even then he can read your jump or air dodge and try to catch your landing again.
There is not really a lot you can do to land safely, but I do have some tips:
- Mix up your fast falling and normal falling (Don't always rush for the ground. This might throw their grab timing off)
- Never counter on landing, not only will grab just beat this out, but you might get read and f-smashed.
- Go for the ledge always if you can.
- Try to not go to FD against bowser, while mac usually likes FD i just dont feel its worth it in this MU. Battlefield is by far your best bet. Because the platforms can help you land.
- Air dodging after the first hit can be useful, if he does not read it you should be able to nair him and recover.
Mac bowser Neutral
You would believe that mac would win neutral against bowser. Well…….. He kinda does, but not really at the same time. It's weird, Mac has by far the better frame data of the two. And still Bowser somehow seems to excel in this match up. Bowsers grab range will allow him to punish a lot more of your attacks, so your spacing has to be spot on. Bowser has a trait named “tough guy”. What this means is that he will not take any hitstun form moves that deal less than 1% with some exceptions. This makes your jab almost useless. You can use the gentlemen hitt, but it's not nearly as good as your rapid jab, and it's also negative on hit from about 0-40%. So is d-tilt to side-b at about the same percents. Also Macs jab is super trigger sensitive, this is a known problem but it really shines here. Sometimes the rapid will come out even without you wanting it too. Bowsers range is actually really big his jab and tilts covers a lot of range. Lots of his attacks are also intangible. This makes it really hard to approach Bowser. And seeing how you are Little mac you are the one who is going to be approaching the most. His firebreath is stupidly annoying to deal with, seeing how you can`t get over it. This will often lead to you taking unnecessary damage if he catches you off guard. You can jolt over it, but if they angle the fire up you will get trapped. Your best bet is to wait it out and not challenge it at all.
A lot of people say that you just have to catch his landings, but that is a 50/50 at best. Because of his down air/ Down-b Most other characters would have gone for an up-air, in a situation like that. Mac can't do that. Well he can but…… ya know. All Mac can do is try to read where he is going to land and if he is going to use a “Free landing option” If you let go of your up-smash to early you will get hit.
Bowser really only needs 5-6 grabs and that is a stock because of Mac's stupid weight and gravity. Sometimes even less depending on rage. And on the other side Bowser lives forever, Don't be surprised if he lives to about 140%. While mac has good kill confirms, they are not always the safest.
Over all:
- Bowser only needs 5-6 grabs to kill Mac.
- Up-throw to up-air is true on Mac almost always.
- Bowser is great at capitalizing on Macs awful disadvantage state.
- Bowser has better range than Mac.
- His pivot grab beats out pretty much all of Mac's offensive options.
- Mac can't really deal with good grabs.
- Bowser lives far longer than Mac, and gets all of that juicy rage.
- Covering Bowsers landing is hard for mac, because of a lack of good aerials.
- Mac has some bad hurtbox shifting, most notably his d-tilt.
I am not saying this matchup it impossible for mac, you just have to play very defensively. Our best player where i live plays bowser so i am well versed in the matchup. I hope this brought some light to a matchup that otherwise gets taken for granted. Thanks for reading!
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