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Why is WFT's attack so crap in range and offer NOTHING to make up for it?

Shinuto

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I've been getting handed my ass by Docs, Sheiks, Clouds, Falcons, Foxes, and everything else because all my attacks, ftilts, smashes, nairs, and fairs KEEP MISSING and endlag on EVERYTHING means I get punished. I can never hit short hop nair. ftilt whiffs 99% of the time. grabs don't combo OR kill. Frame data is just stupid on dair which makes no sense so its useless as a spike most of the time except on hard hard reads. utilt and dtilt are super hard to hit with, and utilt while somewhat good to combo into some aerials and even Usmash is just...next to impossible to hit anyone with outside of like anti air....but damn near every other aerial attack hits me before it hits them!

Am doing this wrong? I like WFT as my main and I remember looking up her MU and I'm losing to a lot of character she supposedly has a good MU on.
 
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Fancykong

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Moves are only part of the equation. Judicious use of them and proper movement to be in the right place at the right time is necessary.

For example, when do you use Ftilt? Using it to chase a roll is one way, or a quick close-range punish. The trick is learning the opponent's movement habits first, so stay alert.

When do you use Nair? Nair is a good combo starter when spaced correctly, but did you realize that if you use Nair immediately from the short hop, you can drift backwards or forwards? If your opponent shields, you can just keep going past them to safety. Plus, SH nair done like this is completely lagless. You can also use Nair at the end of your short hop (and eat the landing lag) as a punish tool. A way to condition the opponent to give you the chance is to empty hop (jumping without pressing anything else). You'd be surprised how scary it is to people when you just flip around in their face, and if they shield, you get a free grab, which can throw them offstage where you shine. Or if they throw an unsafe move out, you have a free Nair.

Against Cloud, I've found that less is more. Less attacks means less openings and more chances to punish. You want to stay at about medium range, out of sword length but close enough to pressure without him resorting to Limit camping. 75% to fully charged Salutations phase through his Blade Beam (even the limit break version). Treat his recovery exactly like Kirby's. One dair close to the ledge kills him since he has a weird ledge snap. You can also use other moves like Up B to screw his recovery timing up.

Message me if you need help with the other matchups too.

Edit: RTAC (Run turn around cancel) utilts/dtilts are good, and yes, Upsmash is an anti air. But it's a very powerful one when used properly. I'll update with a video showing this later.
 
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Conn1496

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Wii Fit is a very difficult character to space with - probably notoriously so - but their other tools are actually really good IMO. You really have to work your mix-ups and force poor approaches for your opponent. Wii Fit's weakest area is her ground-ground combat, so you should likely take the most caution there. -even your offstage vs. ground game is better. Utilise that often. Don't be afraid to run right off the edge just so you can jump back with a D-air or similar move like Header.

Their grab range and speed isn't particularly awful, and while you can't combo off it, I have killed with throws when Deep Breathing is active before. Jab is actually pretty damn good too and allows for great follow-ups on burial, and while F-tilt, I'll agree, isn't particularly great range-wise, sometimes it gives you that little bit extra range you need. Though, for your neutral, you want to be using projectiles anyway since your approach is awful. -chances are, you'll only be throwing out Jabs and F-tilts on punish.

That being said, full-hop B-air is incredulously safe on shield and N-air, while it's kind of awkward unless you're right in there is really good for B-air baits if you're going backwards, and you might even catch them with it too, which is even better as you can combo off it (You can even do it and side-B backwards quickly to bait a B-air hit even harder if you think your N-air will get caught, but that's a really weird mix-up so for the love of god, don't use it often.). I recommend fast falling from a full hop with it if you're really going for the N-air hit, or at least delaying the move a little on short-hop, since the biggest problem is that the hit-box fades out before you're close enough.

I think it's just better to hit from above, below, or far away. You have a weird "unsafe" zone that's basically a wide ellipse around you, so just play defensively if they're close to you but grounded, and punish bad whiffs and shield hits with Jabs, F-tilts and Dash attacks. -also, IIRC, D-air can be short hopped lagless if you want to hop over them offensively, but I could be wrong on that... I'd lab it.

About U-tilt and D-tilt, I don't like these moves either. U-tilt is really 'meh', but D-tilt is pretty good for a quick reaction out of crouch (Crouch makes a notable amount of moves miss.).

Also, remember a lot of your attacks are bi-directional, so don't ignore Jab, F-tilt or F-air's back-hit, because they're all useful in their own right. (F-tilt's back hit is a kill move later IIRC.)

I also hear Dash Attack is pretty good (I think most notably because it sets up for a lot of good follow-ups.), but I'm uncertain on this one myself.

Personally, I like using D-smash a lot since it causes a lot of air approaches to whiff and can instantly punish them. It's not super-reliable, but it's reliable enough for me, and is - again - a Smash attack (-and therefore spaces and/or kills/sets up.)

As for your offstage, just don't go for D-air spikes unless you're sure IMO. So much of your offstage game is better and overall more reliable. Go for F-airs (They linger!) and N-airs (They can combo!), even U-airs are pretty good. Header can spike and/or do a ton of damage if both hits hit and can also just outright ping them with a dangerously strong projectile, B-air is super-fast, even Super Hoop is relatively good if you just want to tap them and get back to stage quickly - at higher %s it notably can stage-spike. Just whatever you do, I can't stress this enough, do not rely on spikes (Actually, this is pretty good advice for all characters.), and if you really want to, just remember you can bait an air dodge for a quick one.

I think my overall best tip is to utilise your mobility and projectiles more than your melee attack range, since relying on Jabs and F-tilts etc. is probably WFT's worst option. Don't be afraid to force jumps with uncharged Sun Salutations, learn how to correctly abuse JC U-smashes (since any opponent who is relatively air-borne and some who aren't will get murdered by this move), and most importantly, make sure you're forcing situations that are better for you. I think that goes for any character, but no more so than with WFT. -and it's really easy to, too.

I will say, I'm pretty casual as a Smash player, and kinda rusty with WFT right now, so all these tips might not be the greatest, but I'm sure a lot of them are useful enough. I'd honestly like if other (better) WFT players could confirm this lot for me too - would be very appreciated, thanks.
 

Fancykong

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Wii Fit is a very difficult character to space with - probably notoriously so - but their other tools are actually really good IMO. You really have to work your mix-ups and force poor approaches for your opponent. Wii Fit's weakest area is her ground-ground combat, so you should likely take the most caution there. -even your offstage vs. ground game is better. Utilise that often. Don't be afraid to run right off the edge just so you can jump back with a D-air or similar move like Header.

Their grab range and speed isn't particularly awful, and while you can't combo off it, I have killed with throws when Deep Breathing is active before. Jab is actually pretty damn good too and allows for great follow-ups on burial, and while F-tilt, I'll agree, isn't particularly great range-wise, sometimes it gives you that little bit extra range you need. Though, for your neutral, you want to be using projectiles anyway since your approach is awful. -chances are, you'll only be throwing out Jabs and F-tilts on punish.

That being said, full-hop B-air is incredulously safe on shield and N-air, while it's kind of awkward unless you're right in there is really good for B-air baits if you're going backwards, and you might even catch them with it too, which is even better as you can combo off it (You can even do it and side-B backwards quickly to bait a B-air hit even harder if you think your N-air will get caught, but that's a really weird mix-up so for the love of god, don't use it often.). I recommend fast falling from a full hop with it if you're really going for the N-air hit, or at least delaying the move a little on short-hop, since the biggest problem is that the hit-box fades out before you're close enough.

I think it's just better to hit from above, below, or far away. You have a weird "unsafe" zone that's basically a wide ellipse around you, so just play defensively if they're close to you but grounded, and punish bad whiffs and shield hits with Jabs, F-tilts and Dash attacks. -also, IIRC, D-air can be short hopped lagless if you want to hop over them offensively, but I could be wrong on that... I'd lab it.

About U-tilt and D-tilt, I don't like these moves either. U-tilt is really 'meh', but D-tilt is pretty good for a quick reaction out of crouch (Crouch makes a notable amount of moves miss.).

Also, remember a lot of your attacks are bi-directional, so don't ignore Jab, F-tilt or F-air's back-hit, because they're all useful in their own right. (F-tilt's back hit is a kill move later IIRC.)

I also hear Dash Attack is pretty good (I think most notably because it sets up for a lot of good follow-ups.), but I'm uncertain on this one myself.

Personally, I like using D-smash a lot since it causes a lot of air approaches to whiff and can instantly punish them. It's not super-reliable, but it's reliable enough for me, and is - again - a Smash attack (-and therefore spaces and/or kills/sets up.)

As for your offstage, just don't go for D-air spikes unless you're sure IMO. So much of your offstage game is better and overall more reliable. Go for F-airs (They linger!) and N-airs (They can combo!), even U-airs are pretty good. Header can spike and/or do a ton of damage if both hits hit and can also just outright ping them with a dangerously strong projectile, B-air is super-fast, even Super Hoop is relatively good if you just want to tap them and get back to stage quickly - at higher %s it notably can stage-spike. Just whatever you do, I can't stress this enough, do not rely on spikes (Actually, this is pretty good advice for all characters.), and if you really want to, just remember you can bait an air dodge for a quick one.

I think my overall best tip is to utilise your mobility and projectiles more than your melee attack range, since relying on Jabs and F-tilts etc. is probably WFT's worst option. Don't be afraid to force jumps with uncharged Sun Salutations, learn how to correctly abuse JC U-smashes (since any opponent who is relatively air-borne and some who aren't will get murdered by this move), and most importantly, make sure you're forcing situations that are better for you. I think that goes for any character, but no more so than with WFT. -and it's really easy to, too.

I will say, I'm pretty casual as a Smash player, and kinda rusty with WFT right now, so all these tips might not be the greatest, but I'm sure a lot of them are useful enough. I'd honestly like if other (better) WFT players could confirm this lot for me too - would be very appreciated, thanks.

You're correct about lagless SH Dair and Nair.
 

Lakuto

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I'm used to WFT now so hitboxes aren't really a problem. With good spacing and all that you kinda know what to throw at. Ftilt is good if you know how to pit it but other people can tell you how to use moves at full potential.

My main problem though is the lack of safe moves on shield. Like Fair, Nair are great tools for me but they get bodied on shield. Only thing kinda safe is Bair if well spaced...
 

Fancykong

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As promised, here is my greatest anti air use of Up smash to date. This was against a real person who made an unfortunate mistake.

Potato quality because my Gamepad is dead and YouTube hates me:

 

Shinuto

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I've been getting handed my *** by Docs, Sheiks, Clouds, Falcons, Foxes, and everything else because all my attacks, ftilts, smashes, nairs, and fairs KEEP MISSING and endlag on EVERYTHING means I get punished. I can never hit short hop nair. ftilt whiffs 99% of the time. grabs don't combo OR kill. Frame data is just stupid on dair which makes no sense so its useless as a spike most of the time except on hard hard reads. utilt and dtilt are super hard to hit with, and utilt while somewhat good to combo into some aerials and even Usmash is just...next to impossible to hit anyone with outside of like anti air....but damn near every other aerial attack hits me before it hits them!

Am doing this wrong? I like WFT as my main and I remember looking up her MU and I'm losing to a lot of character she supposedly has a good MU on.

Thanks on nair help, now ftilt my problem is my opponent while be just out of reach or I would be able to hit them, and they are not TOO close to me and they roll behind me and SOMEHOW end up being far enough from to not get hit by my ftilt EVEN if I turn around to hit them with the front part.
 

Fancykong

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Rolling is dumb on this game. Not only are the individual distances different, but because of your run speed, you'll actually reach their end point and punish before their invincibility wears off. Pay close attention to where they roll and learn when they stop flashing, then strike.

As for range, remember that if pivot Ftilt misses, you can also try pivot grabbing. The trick to both is that you have to trust your read and run a few steps farther than you think and then use the move. Positioning is everything! There are plenty of other characters that rely on throwing safe moves that always hit, but for WFT, your movement is essential.
 

Luxent

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I agree with you OP. Wii Fit sucks in general.

Dont get me wrong folks, she's my second favourite in the whole cast.
Yes, she has moves, but discussing her benefits in battle, people act like strategies are fool-proof and guaranteed.

WiiFit HAS good tools, but honestly, everyone else in the cast has better moves than her. I'd say her whole moveset got stuck on the shtick of performing Yoga Poses, its hard to develop her as a *serious* fighter.

I will add though, her movement and speed, jumpheight/recovery, and Special moves are VERY good. When it comes to straight up Attack properties, wii fit trainer seriously falls flat. :<
 

Fancykong

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Yes, she has moves, but discussing her benefits in battle, people act like strategies are fool-proof and guaranteed.
Huh? You just explained every character in the game, including Sheik. The strats themselves change due to the tides of battle, true. But no character in the game (besides Mario using Upsmash) just runs in and spams A.

For example, Sheik vs. Bowser. Sheik's Fair is an amazing spacing tool, but without the SHFFL Fair strategy and fading back, they'll hit Boswer's shield and she'll die within seconds. On the other hand, Bowser's Forward smash is FAR stronger than Sheik's considering that they both leave each other open. But good luck landing that on her without a game plan.

Worse still, your opening statement says that she "sucks in general" but your supporting information only talks about moves and tools. Yes, they're a factor. No, they aren't the deciding one.

Edit: After reading my post, I'm sorry if I came off as being abrasive. But let me know if you'd like me to explain further.
 
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Luxent

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I dont blame you!

Basically, in short, I was trying to say Wii Fit has been given a short hand on a LOT of things.
Mainly attack speed and (i think) damage output.

Example: Why must her downsmash do a measly 12% at its weakest? Why not 14 or 15? like most other characters?
Her moves have great deal of starting and endling lag. Why is she *cursed* with such properties on all of her moves, and not sheik or other players?

These are things I often think about .
 

Conn1496

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I dont blame you!

Basically, in short, I was trying to say Wii Fit has been given a short hand on a LOT of things.
Mainly attack speed and (i think) damage output.

Example: Why must her downsmash do a measly 12% at its weakest? Why not 14 or 15? like most other characters?
Her moves have great deal of starting and endling lag. Why is she *cursed* with such properties on all of her moves, and not sheik or other players?

These are things I often think about .
Because good spacing, set-ups and - in the case of N-air, most notably - combos and mix-ups exist.

I understand your problems with WFT, most notably with frame data and power, but even looking at that, some of Wii Fit's moves are above average. Mostly in the air, sure, but that's what you should be focused on with Wii Fit anyway.

I just feel WFT suffers from high-complexity. There are no straight-forward answers in their moveset, so in twitch/reaction situations, against most characters, you suffer, so you have to play very conservatively to truly take advantage. -and I'm not saying "If you can't play Wii Fit Trainer, you're bad.", but I find that a lot of people who can't learn atleast one conservative playstyle tend to have less of an understanding about the game on a competitive level. I'd actually dare say Wii Fit might be top 3 most defensive playstyles in the game, there is no rush-in, there is no super-good reactionary move, just strategy and set-up, and that's a huge problem for a lot of people when it comes to wanting to pick WFT up. -some people just straight up don't like this playstyle either, and that's fine.

As for the D-smash example in particular, IIRC, it also semi-spikes, so you can get some good distance with it, even if the move itself is not naturally powerful. Plus, it has some hitbox shuffling properties I'm actually really fond of, so the power on it isn't too great an issue (Plus, deep breathing exists. Gotta make the most of that.).

I don't think their moves are that slow, but rather their range is lacking, and that makes it feel like your moves come out late when in truth, they usually just need to come out later. When range isn't a factor, they're actually pretty average. The endlag on the moves isn't the worst either outside of smashes and a couple of tilt attacks, and for a character with such a good projectile game, air game, and above average mobility, it kind of balances out since you won't be wildly throwing them out often anyway.

When you contrast WFT with - say, Link, for simplicity's sake - you notice that a lot of Link's moves can be used as a reactionary tool quite safely because of the range and disjoint they have, even if the speed is poor, where WFT's every move takes some level of thought because your body's range is so blatantly poor it doesn't make up for the average speed they have. What does make up for it though is that your moves generally put people in negative situations (In air, buried, etc.), are good when you or your opponent is in trouble (When you're offstage, your opponent is above you, etc.), or at the least, reset to neutral (Things like F-tilt and Sun Salutation give you a lot of breathing space on hit.), and you really have to take that into account when you look at the moveset as a whole - you're there to punish, take advantage, and pressure hard, but failing that, there's no doubt your close range game is poor enough that you're quite likely to get beat out by everyone - you're gonna have to run most of the time.

That's my analysis on it anyway, I do consider myself a casual, so I could be wrong, but I dabble in enough data to know generally why WFT is hard to use and it basically comes down to the fact that your reaction options suck...
 

Luxent

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I think objectively, on her own, she's quite fine.
But comparatively, she's just really lacking. :(

I ~feel~ you when you say there is not distinct one-answer for her. I've played defensively, i've played offensively.
Maybe this mixup of playstyle is something unique all of its own?

Aye. Its a headache to think about. Luckily for her, she is genuinely ~fun~ to play.

I will always and forever hate her fair. I wish it was a knee-thrust forward or something.
 

Erimir

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Her damage output isn't so bad. Sure, her d-smash isn't the strongest, but she has some other melee moves that are decently powerful. Keep in mind that her d-smash has an angle on it that is deadly for some characters. The most extreme example being Deep Breathing, near the edge, Little Mac... on FD it kills (lvl 9 training mode) Mac literally at only ~30%. So, in buffing it, they wouldn't want to make it too easy to hit with unless they were going to nerf it somehow (reducing BKB and increasing KBG at the same time might compensate by making it harder to kill early with it though).

The range on her moves is never going to be great even if they buff it (maybe they could help her u-smash out a liiiittle bit more). Tweaks to her knockback and damage would be appreciated, of course, but I'd rather see improvements to her frame data.
 

Lvl99Gamer

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I think objectively, on her own, she's quite fine.
But comparatively, she's just really lacking. :(

I ~feel~ you when you say there is not distinct one-answer for her. I've played defensively, i've played offensively.
Maybe this mixup of playstyle is something unique all of its own?

Aye. Its a headache to think about. Luckily for her, she is genuinely ~fun~ to play.

I will always and forever hate her fair. I wish it was a knee-thrust forward or something.
I used to think that too, especially when you're used to characters with straight forward fairs like Luigi/Peach/sheik etc. I'm guessing you, like me, love using fair on the way down/ during fast fall or whatever which Wii fit trainer's fair just can do. However, it's really good for chasing people in the air and if the opponent is behind you in an offstage battle it's a far more reliable spike than down-b.

It's something you have to get used to, like everything about Wii fit.
 

BoxedOccaBerrys

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I used to think that too, especially when you're used to characters with straight forward fairs like Luigi/Peach/sheik etc. I'm guessing you, like me, love using fair on the way down/ during fast fall or whatever which Wii fit trainer's fair just can do. However, it's really good for chasing people in the air and if the opponent is behind you in an offstage battle it's a far more reliable spike than down-b.

It's something you have to get used to, like everything about Wii fit.
I agree with that last statement, You have to get used to the oddness of her attacks, with all of them having their own quirk about them (her d-tilt has a windbox, her Fair spikes in the back hitbox).

Which is what caught my eye, I always had her as a pocket, but when she got buffs, I started playing her again, and it was glorious, I went on For Glory, and people were losing left and right to me, thanks to my previous knowledge of Wii Fit.

I love my main :4wiifit: ~
 

Lvl99Gamer

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I agree with that last statement, You have to get used to the oddness of her attacks, with all of them having their own quirk about them (her d-tilt has a windbox, her Fair spikes in the back hitbox).

Which is what caught my eye, I always had her as a pocket, but when she got buffs, I started playing her again, and it was glorious, I went on For Glory, and people were losing left and right to me, thanks to my previous knowledge of Wii Fit.

I love my main :4wiifit: ~
I agree, I've been playing her a bit recently because of my quest for a secondary and she's been incredibly fun so far (dat offstage game *drool*) .

My only gripe with her is that her moves feel a bit sluggish, I often find myself in a tough battle spamming a button and having to wait until the animation plays out, which is annoying since I have pretty good reaction speed and I'm used to characters responding immediately to my input.

All that doesn't take away from the fun of playing her though. If by some miracle they really clean up her frame data the next balance patch I may even co-main her with Luigi.
 
D

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I've grabbed WFT for the past month, she's a struggle. I play extremely campy with Sun Salutations and Header Balls, getting chip damage. Deep Breathing helps with the killing, but you have to bait or Tomahawk, because of her slow moves, I've annoyed my friends time and time again, making her the bane of their existence.
 

Jlp

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I often try to avoid uses WFT smashes because of how much of a commitment it is, high risk high reward right?

I started using PP a lot and they work pretty well with Ftilt, you should try it out.
 

Lvl99Gamer

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I often try to avoid uses WFT smashes because of how much of a commitment it is, high risk high reward right?

I started using PP a lot and they work pretty well with Ftilt, you should try it out.
I barely smash with her at all, they come out too slow for my tastes, and not just that, there's this super loud whistle sound that plays when you start charging it which makes it even worse if the opponent has good reaction speed.

Also, I can't perfect pivot for the life of me sadly... Not even at 1/4th speed... I just don't know why, I've got no issues with my hand or whatever and got good finger speed. I'm great at games like stepmania but I just can't pull it off.
I've tried it for days, trying out multiple tutorials etc. It's just not meant for me I think.
 

Jlp

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Lvl99Gamer Lvl99Gamer I'm sure you've seen this already but I learned from this video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0

I hope your not trying it on the 3DS cause you'll break your circle pad:/ ..and it's much harder to do.

It might take a while but it can be applied to every character and is super useful!

Don't give up!

Stretch Those Le- ..Fingers!
 

Lakuto

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I barely smash with her at all, they come out too slow for my tastes, and not just that, there's this super loud whistle sound that plays when you start charging it which makes it even worse if the opponent has good reaction speed.

Also, I can't perfect pivot for the life of me sadly... Not even at 1/4th speed... I just don't know why, I've got no issues with my hand or whatever and got good finger speed. I'm great at games like stepmania but I just can't pull it off.
I've tried it for days, trying out multiple tutorials etc. It's just not meant for me I think.
Try sliding pivot if you haven't already.
Speaking of which, if you run one way then run the opposite way and perfom a crouch right after you are shifting direction, you will conserve the momentum of the dash. That way you can dodge projectile and/or position yourself for an Uptilt. Easier than PP, not quite the same applications. I'm trying to add this to my arsenal.
 

ligersandtigons

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i wish deep breathing increased the range of some of her moves with an invisible disjoint like Snake's uptilt in brawl lol
 

Kaiduru Zeta

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Responding to the OP, I honestly don't think WFT is that bad. Sure her range is pretty bad but she has 2 reliable spikes(I'm not including back of fair's hitbox since that's REALLY situational), only character who can heal herself, dsmash knocks away opponents at an amazing angle(notably for characters with crappy recoveries). Also nair can combo pretty reliably. Upsmash kills at great percentages.She's also got a lot of uses with header(Header cancelling opens a plethora of things to do with the header ball and can allow you to confuse your opponent with the various usages). So yeah, WFT's not too bad you just gotta get adjusted to her.
 
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