Why is Fox better than Falco?

[XxavierPKRS]

Name says it all. Fox beats Falco on the tier list, but why?
I don't really play either character. I just picked up Fox for fun, but also see a lot of potential in Falco.
Sure, he's slow. But his short-hopped lasers are so useful, and he can still pull off some decent combos.
Plus, that Dair tho.

I know the differences between these characters help between certain matchups, but overall, why is Fox better?

 

[G13_Flux]

he isnt necessarily. in melee, it was really really close between the two. i think fox was considered slightly better because other high tier characters had an easier time egdeguarding him, and you even had peach that went even with him. with fox, he is harder to edge guard and will live longer since his recovery is better in every single way. the fact that fox is also the overall quickest character in the game, has more reliable offstage edge guarding abilites (shine spike), and has slightly more kill options than falco seems to sway the public in his favor (fox's main killers are upsmash, uair, shine spike, and bair; falcos are dair, fsmash, bair, and uair. for falco, his fsmash and uair dont always kill as reliably as fox's upsmash and uair do).

in PM however, you could actually easily argue that falco is better than fox. for one, fox was nerfed a bit more than falco was, although slightly indirectly. the damage change to distant lasers means that fox's laser camping damage racking abilities were hurt a decent amount. for falco, this isnt exactly as bad since his lasers are more used for set ups as opposed to damage racking in comparison to fox. the loss of invincibility on shine hurts fox more also since his shine spike is mcuh riskier now, and fox made much more use in melee of straight up running shine approaches than falco, which used to be able to clank out anything. additionally, their are wayyy more characters now with good projectiles and ways of dealing with projectiles and even healing from energy based ones. falco can usually out do most characters with projectiles since his are pretty much always better. fox cant on the other hand since his dont cause hitstun. This can cause a sway in this MU spread.

you could also argue on the other hand that better recoveries in general make it harder for falco to edge guard than for fox, and that better edge guard games in general mean even more absolute death offstage for falco than fox.

in all seriousness though, i wouldnt focus on whos better.. theyre both two of the best characters in the game and can deal with any character efficiently , and if you play them intelligently theyre more than a force to be reckoned with. focus on your own abilities with the characters you like instead of which character is better

 

[Mr.Random]

Idk. I think M2K pretty much made the perfect analysis here http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...w2kings-top-5-super-smash-bros-tier-list-pt3/.
I disagree they are the best in the game. Other characters haven't been explored and are potentially better than both. Like Pit or Lucas, hell even Diddy might be better.

 

[XxavierPKRS]

I definitely don't think they are the best in PM. But I like M2K's stance on the subject. It's is just interesting to see what people's opinions are.

 

[G13_Flux]

i dont think that anyone is going to be the best in this game. whereas in melee, it was kinda clear that there were top tier characters, and other characters that just flat out werent good, i dont think those differences are as clear in PM. i think theres just going to be a general top tier category, then a mid, and then a sub-mid tier. its too hard to divide the characters further than that. tournaments are going to be largely based on player caliber and exploitation of MUs, much more so than melee where you pretty much needed to play a top tier character, with a few exceptions.

 

[OgiEthan]

I honestly think (in melee anyway) Falco vs fox is 55/45 in favor of Falco. Falco can kill fox at percents almost equally as low as fox can against Falco. Quick example is mango vs hax from WHOBO, when he punished Hax with a dair at 15/16% ish and killed him. Their spacing is identical, only problem is that (if it isn't SDI'd) fox's upair is significantly better, as a kill option. Is the mu the same in p:m? I know fox was definitely nerfed, but Falco seems equally dominant.

 

[OgiEthan]

The killing at equally low percents was meant to show that Falco's dair is almost as OP as fox's shine.

 

[Thor]

M2K had in some list somewhere that he thought Falco > Fox. It's not a given that Fox > Falco (if you look at the vote average, Fox doesn't have the 1.00 - some people think Falco > Fox).

That shine -> usmash tho.

 

[xSTx]

I think they go even, Fox just has potential that can't possibly be reached without TAS.

 

[Estwood]

Recovery and movement are what make such a big difference. Falco stayed pretty much the same from Melee, being slow with poor recovery. While fox has maintained speed and techskill to counter his brawl abilities. Winning with Falco isn't impossible, it just takes reads and patience, and your options are limited.

 

[DMG]

Fox is probably better than Falco in PM once you factor in new bad/hard MU's for both characters (Falco probably legit loses some MU's in PM) and once you consider stages. Fox is very universal on stages, Falco slightly less so.

 

[internetmovieguy]

fox is better than falco because melee

 

[Blank Mauser]

I actually think Falco is better than Fox in PM. The shine nerf hurts Fox more because shine spike is simply harder to do when everyone has amazing recovery, and Fox relied on the invincibility a bit more.

Then there are a lot of other factors. No more lightshielding means one less option to escape Falco's pillaring. Falco's lagless reflector helps out in a number of projectile-heavy PM matchups. I think overall he transfered over better and gets hurt less by the changes, it's probably still very close though.

 

[Boomhound]

I feel that both are still very strong but that most know how to fight against the spacies, while not all spacies know how to fight against the majority of PM's fresh cast.
I also believe that Fox may place higher than Falco in PM's tier list as he has more options do deal with adversity, especially as he has a stronger movement game and stronger recovery.

This shouldn't stop you from playing Falco however, he still has incredible tools in his lasers, dair and shine.
Falco was always a glass cannon and one could argue that he's just as weak now against PM's ballers as he was to Sheik, Marth and Jiggs in Melee- and players overcame these match-ups through adaptation + experience.

PM Falcos simply have to adapt to the new roster along with focus on stage control as to avoid gimps, like Falco always has.

 

[-Se7en-]

I love the Space Animals but here's my 2 cents.

Fox's shine comes out on Frame 1 and can be jump cancelled frame 4 because jump-squat is 3 frames I think. Simply put Fox has reliable tools on every character no matter what weight, for example the infamous Fox vs Jigglypuff matchup : Fox has Up throw - up air as a kill option around 70% and his amazing up smash that shuts down aerial approaches so in other words if Puff approaches it's a stock.

I have no idea what the matchup is like for Falco, he has Fsmash as a kill move and he's much easier for puff to gimp so I'd imagine it's much easier for Fox than Falco.

Then Fox also has the most technical possibility of any Melee character, and he can kill (almost) any character at 0% offstage with a move that comes out frame 1. This move can also be chained together with Wavedashes on some characters that don't fall or slide far from the shine and can end into his dreaded up smash.

What about characters that fall? Thunder's Combo : Shine, wavedash towards them, jab while they are down to force getup, then do whatever you please. The possibilities are endless.

That's just based off of shine pretty much, let's not forget Fox's mobililty and air speed as well as general speed is better than Falco's. EVEN his recovery is better.

 

[Boomhound]

I love the Space Animals but here's my 2 cents.

You're right about Fox's SHFFL pressure, shine-spikes and Thunder's combo being great tools vs many match-ups- as more than likely, regardless of who he is against, two out of three of these techniques will be viable.

I would still argue that Falco doesn't trail too far behind however as he has his own alternatives to these tricks in his pillar combos for pressure, his Dair for spiking and he can also laser-reset.
I'd comment that although pillar combos are easier to escape, they are also easier to execute and deadlier than flashy shield-pressure. Easier again but by no means less effective is his laser pressure which can also lead to laser-grab set-ups.
Dair kills are also less risky and more frequent than shine-spikes, and much easier to combo in to.
Although I mentioned laser-resets I know these are quite situational, so as Falco's equivalent to thunder's I would mention Dair-tech chase-Fsmash.

All these options are also relevant against the majority of PM's cast. Falco is still amazing- don't lose faith in his potential in PM, just have a healthy fear for his weaknesses and abuse his pressure all the while doing your best not to put yourself in bad situations.

 

[-Se7en-]

I didn't mean it as in a way to make Falco look bad, I just don't know Falco like I know Fox.

Laser resets are great, but you aren't going to get a reset with lasers as easy as you would with a frame 1 move being executed and canceled into a frame 3 (probably wrong on frame) jab with extremely low ending lag.

Reader : Don't think Falco is bad compared to Fox. Falco's Dair can decimate a stock and it applies brutal pressure in a Tech Chase situation. You're getting slammed all over the place trying to reset back to neutral and Falco is just wiping his feet on you while throwing lasers, and pillaring you all over.

 

[Boomhound]

Yeah man laser-resets are for the most part quite rare, and no worries I think we all know Falco isn't bad, I didn't mean to angle your opinion as such.
I just wanted to remind people of Falco's tools and ofc while the the Fox>Falco debate will never end it's important to remind people that just because Fox is better in theory it doesn't mean that Falco is a lesser equivalent- in fact, if memory serves me right Falco has much better tournament results in melee in comparison.

I think people may be worried that the spacie's metagame has reached its full potential while so many new PM characters are still evolving, but I believe that even if that is true, the spacie's counter strategy for the new match-ups is something quite new and exciting-

Only time will tell if Fox or Falco will adapt better to this new roster.

 

[-Se7en-]

S Tier = Spacie Tier.

 

[RecklessGreen]

It's simple. He's faster, has a larger distance with his up B, up smash is stronger, and up tilts cause more juggle

 

[Boomhound]

Haha but Falco can jump higher

Even if Fox was better it wouldn't necessarily mean everyone should choose him over Falco-
they have different play styles and some might do better with Falco regardless.
Fox is read and bait oriented, along with having a high skill ceiling which requires strong tech skill to play him even somewhat decently.
Falco's style on the other hand is more lock-down and control, he still requires tech-skill but not as much as Fox to be decent.
Of course these are just generalizations but I'd definitely encourage players to choose the space they feel suits them as you will do much better with that one over the 'superior' counterpart.

 

[FalconOwnage]

Fox has faster attacks overall, but Falco has a better projectile and different KO moves. However, in PM there are many viable characters (compared to Melee), so you can easily win with anyone such as Roy (which was unlikely in Melee).

 

[Kar]

Fox is better because just because of his speed. It gives him so much opportunities (shfflana, easy grabs) and amazing follow-ups.

 

[Kar]

Falco has a very solid neutral game but I feel like he doesn't get free opportunities as easily as Fox. Especially since a lot of characters aren't affected by his lasers as much as in Melee

 

[Cpt.]

Fox can recover

Falco can't recover

Fox runs fast and falls fast

Falco runs slow and falls fast

 

[JosekiTheGreat]

I would like to comment that Fox's recovery is not *strictly* better than falcos in Melee or PM. Falco's illusion comes out a couple frames faster, and spikes! =)

 

[Mr. S]

I would like to comment that Fox's recovery is not *strictly* better than falcos in Melee or PM. Falco's illusion comes out a couple frames faster, and spikes! =)

And doesn't go as far.

Sure, having the meteor is nice, but Fox's recovery is pretty much strictly better than Falco's in both games.

 

[proxibomb]

I would like to comment that Fox's recovery is not *strictly* better than falcos in Melee or PM. Falco's illusion comes out a couple frames faster, and spikes! =)

The spike, although useful, is easily avoidable. The only situations I see it being useful in are fighting newbs who don't know about it, or spiking any sorry foe that is trying to recover to the same ledge as you.

 

[Chinaux]

Fox has better matchups than falco, is faster, and a better recovery. Falco is good though it's not by much that fox is better.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The thing I like to think is that Falco is a specialist in what he does whereas Fox does what Falco does almost if not just as good but with more tools and stuff in areas that Falco doesn't have them in. Stuff like recovery, movement speed and dashdance, a better grab game.

Falco's inferiority is magnified in P:M where I believe he's Top tier but not 2nd place below Fox anymore, because of a generally better cast that exploits his faults a bit more clearly.