Why Double Jump Cancelling Feels so Off in PM

[BigglesWorth]

If you are nut for DJC characters like I am (which is few of us I know) then you have probably have noticed how DJC feels in PM. It feels...slow. Lack of immediate juggling follow ups. I wasn't sure what the matter was and why I was forced to fast fall to get even remotelly similar results to N64 or Melee but Peach and Mewtwo felt perfectly like Melee DJC. Characters like Ness and Yoshi that function almost entirely off this mechanic, it seemed weird to me that it didn't function to in the way that made it so good in the first place. At first, I thought maybe them and Lucas were just floatier by comparison. Then I realize the real truth, the only reason why Mewtwo's djc works and others don't is that his momentum is now in the float like Peach's. So ironically, by giving Mewtwo a float he actually has a djc that functioned like Melee or N64 while the other characters who are to have don't. I thought maybe it was quirk with the 7 frame timing for rising aerials, but its not that either. I realize, the aerials don't actually cancel the momentum which is silly. A real DJC means I go tap jump tap jump and then a so I fall back down as if I fastfalled normally while doing a nair. This doesn't happen in PM. I am just curious as to why? Intentional nerf, limitations of the engine. Does anyone know? Even fastfalled in many cases normal shffld aerials are faster than attempting djc aerials which defeats the purpose of having Djc. Maybe, I just completely suck (I will leave that open to possibility). But from what it seems, DJC in PM means an aerial stop upward momentum but stalls the falling while previous games DJC means the aerial completely stops upward momentum and starts falling as if fastfalling immediately. Can anyone shed light on this to me?

 

[DrinkingFood]

You're probably partially triggering rising aerials but still getting the DJC once you release up/jump.
Trying being quicker about releasing jump. Imagine that, something that's more difficult in PM.
Frankly I'm not even sure I understood what your issue is, except that you aren't getting DJC to work how you want it to.

 

[Player -0]

If you are nut for DJC characters like I am (which is few of us I know) then you have probably have noticed how DJC feels in PM. It feels...slow. Lack of immediate juggling follow ups. I wasn't sure what the matter was and why I was forced to fast fall to get even remotelly similar results to N64 or Melee but Peach and Mewtwo felt perfectly like Melee DJC. Characters like Ness and Yoshi that function almost entirely off this mechanic, it seemed weird to me that it didn't function to in the way that made it so good in the first place. At first, I thought maybe them and Lucas were just floatier by comparison. Then I realize the real truth, the only reason why Mewtwo's djc works and others don't is that his momentum is now in the float like Peach's. So ironically, by giving Mewtwo a float he actually has a djc that functioned like Melee or N64 while the other characters who are to have don't. I thought maybe it was quirk with the 7 frame timing for rising aerials, but its not that either. I realize, the aerials don't actually cancel the momentum which is silly. A real DJC means I go tap jump tap jump and then a so I fall back down as if I fastfalled normally while doing a nair. This doesn't happen in PM. I am just curious as to why? Intentional nerf, limitations of the engine. Does anyone know? Even fastfalled in many cases normal shffld aerials are faster than attempting djc aerials which defeats the purpose of having Djc. Maybe, I just completely suck (I will leave that open to possibility). But from what it seems, DJC in PM means an aerial stop upward momentum but stalls the falling while previous games DJC means the aerial completely stops upward momentum and starts falling as if fastfalling immediately. Can anyone shed light on this to me?

It's sounds like your problem is that you aren't cancelling the jump fast enough. I can get the version where you go directly into fast fall. I would suggest using a combination of tap jump and either x or y. I use x (to jump), tap jump (to get the second jump), and then either A (attack) or C-Stick (attack) to cancel it. I also use R to continue the jump if I want to.

Bottom Line - Attack faster.

 

[BigglesWorth]

You're probably partially triggering rising aerials but still getting the DJC once you release up/jump.
Trying being quicker about releasing jump. Imagine that, something that's more difficult in PM.
Frankly I'm not even sure I understood what your issue is, except that you aren't getting DJC to work how you want it to.

Okay so, the tldr version is that it is automatically falling in other games with just an aerial input allowing the ff input to make things overall faster. In contrast, in PM there is also a hang time independent of the 2nd jump input but based on the aerial and requires a fastfall to achieve a similar effect. The requirement of the fastfall + the hang time between the startup of the aerial and the ff makes things overall slower, gutting the overall ability to follow up in juggles. It's a similar effect but a much less optimal effect (I have done the ff input). A 5 to 6 combo juggle is now more like 2 to 4. The amount of versatility in how I follow up in a given frame is reduced I feel.

 

[BigglesWorth]

It's sounds like your problem is that you aren't cancelling the jump fast enough. I can get the version where you go directly into fast fall. I would suggest using a combination of tap jump and either x or y. I use x (to jump), tap jump (to get the second jump), and then either A (attack) or C-Stick (attack) to cancel it. I also use R to continue the jump if I want to.

Bottom Line - Attack faster.

I have. To me at least, it seems quite slower still though it is a similar effect. There still feels like there is hanging time. The problem with using ff and tap jump is that the level of precision where you choose to cancel the momentum isn't nearly as organic. Perhaps a longer time messing with it. It feels extremely obtuse and clunky and I haven't seen produce the level of control and unique movement/spacing djc offers (because typically it involves using the control stick with jumps but requiring ff and tap jump means I have to use them to cancel momentum instead getting control of where and when my aerials are). It makes things even more weird with Yoshi who needs the control stick to meet the more rigid spacings and turn arounds required for his moves to really be made use of.

 

[rpotts]

I can do the Lucas single hit DJC dair fairly well, though admittedly not as fast as DJC dairs with Ness in 64.

My preferred method for speed is X -> tap jump -> C stick , it seems significantly faster than using my thumb for two X inputs and much, much faster than tap jump twice

 

[BigglesWorth]

I can do the Lucas single hit DJC dair fairly well, though admittedly not as fast as DJC dairs with Ness in 64.

My preferred method for speed is X -> tap jump -> C stick , it seems significantly faster than using my thumb for two X inputs and much, much faster than tap jump twice

That seems to be the most comfortable to me.

 

[standardtoaster]

It's a 6 frame window to do a melee DJC by releasing the jump button. It retains any vertical momentum you have during the previous frame you do the DJC, if I'm remembering correctly. That might be why the DJC feels off/less accurate than melee.

 

[BigglesWorth]

I also realize that is different with Yoshi verse other characters due to how important nair is djc after a rising bair or runway and djc reverse nair to catch someone off guard. With ness and lucas, all you need you don't really djc nair in PM. With just how it feels, nairing with Yoshi in PM feels bad. Uair, still feels slower due to the momentum kept, but isn't horrible. The problem is that fast djc nair gives yoshi his mixup, crossup, weird angled style that I love and can't really play in PM.

 

[Player -0]

You can DJC Nair. It's just more difficult to do than other aerials because no C-Stick. You can do the DJC where you instantly go into fast fall like melee, you just have to release the jump button fast enough.

 

[Phaiyte]

let go of the button.