Why Debate?

[Delphiki]

In all the time I've been coming to the Debate Hall, very few threads have managed to hold my interest very long. They're all the same thing: Person A makes a point, only to be refuted by persons B, C, and D, and supported by E, F, and G. In the end, everyone sets out their opinions and supporting facts, and nothing is settled and nothing is gained at the edge of the day.

Furthermore, there have been next to zero original topics. Many of the topics explicitly state that the idea came from elsewhere. Then Person A proceeds to give and ask for stances on it. Moreover, Debaters have a "win-or-lose" attitude in regards to everything here. It's games-mania, not a place for free thought.

Case in point.

Some of you who have been here for a while may remember the posting of some of my essays a few months ago. For posting essays full of original thought (which were NOT intended really for debate, but for input, criticism, and speculation) I was flamed, insulted, and I even got an infraction because I posted one of them both here and in the Pool Room.

Summarily, food for thought was ignored or rejected (there was very little receptive commentary) because everyone seemed to want an argument instead.



Continuing, there is too much focus on semantics. Definitions abound! Is it impossible for a debate to focus on generalizations? Again, it seems you'd rather destroy your opponent's credibility than cripple his idea! And this, even, usually through subterfuge and politics rather than through destruction. I find it simply pitiful.

This Debate Hall ostensibly provides a place for the intelligentsia of SWF to convene and discuss ideas. However, it does NOT gather the best minds, it does NOT have a strong enlistment criteria, and IT DOES NOT PROMOTE THE PROVOCATION OF THOUGHT. Such an organization to me is despicable and rarely worth time. The way I see it, this place is boring and dead for a very good reason. There are better threads in the Rubbish Bin.



So, my question:


Should the "Debate Hall" continue as it has so far - semantic babbling, political rhetoric, lame debates and an overall feigned aggressiveness of opinion - all for the goal (and what kind of a goal is an action!) of debate!

Or, should the Debate Hall be renamed and renewed. Instead have us a place for intellect! For the love of knowledge to create a wonderful spawn-pit of ideas and refutation. No politics! only true thought. A place free of the rabble and babble, where one can come not only to discuss, but to advise and seek answers! A place of true value where one can return to again and again, sure to find enjoyment!


Which of them is the better, Debaters?

 

[AltF4]

I disagree.

/irony

...might not be a bad idea... I dunno. We'd probably get even less participation that way.

 

[Crimson King]

We aren't renaming the room.

 

[Wikipedia]

I find it incredibly ironic that you are the one to make this thread. This is quite the break through.

It was in my "Who Defines Art" thread that I was looking for this very sort of discussion that you are talking about. Just to share ideas and "original thoughts" however it was quickly introduced into a debate by you.

Of course the topic was inherently flawed because there is very little concrete statistical basis to art. However, you have to bring up the "what is the definition of meaning" argument and claim that the discussion is pointless because a definition cannot be reached. And, might I add, in a manner that was completely elementary, I swear, it looked like you blindfolded yourself and pointed randomly onto a page in a thesaurus and then threw that word in there.

An example from your post:

What the creator intends to give is all the purpose of any work. Works can be aimed like the ultimatum of Western tragedy - a brazen note which cannot be denied by any ophidian or leonic eye, like modern artists - interpretable and with little or no intent, or like the tales of musicians - simple and direct. The artist's intent, and nothing else, is the purpose of the work. How this purpose is applied is up to he who it touches. But it is nothing less than criminal to deliberately or idly misinterpret what has been given to posterity.

Honestly, I don't think most people take me for dumb here but so much of your post was fluffed up and pointless. Ophidian or leonic eye?!

No, I think the problem is you, Delphiki. You fall victim to your own argument.

This question is moot without first answering "What is meaning?"

Definitions abound! Is it impossible for a debate to focus on generalizations?

-Just thought I'd provide some "food for thought."


EDIT: Sorry Eric for posting after the 23rd. I won't even add this post to my post archive. I hope you understand.

 

[Digital Watches]

Not to be mean, but this just sounds like pointless whining to me.

So... Debating is fun. INTERNET IS SERIOUS BUSINESS. Bottom line is: People are going to disagree, and since it's the internet, those people will probably argue, sometimes longwindedly, sometimes in an acerbic, asinine, scathing, or overly verbose manner, none of which is anything to get butthurt about. I think that while the Debate Hall is rather stagnant, the current format does plenty to foster intellectual discussion, and is succeeding in doing so (as long as we have topics, which may be a problem of losing the participation of old members while taking in precious few new, or just a holiday season thing, who knows?). Besides, when the rules stipulate that you can talk about anything (within reason, of course), there are bound to be some repeats. Do you read the news? How many times in the last five years have you heard almost exactly the same things from various sources about the "new" developments in the fight for/against abortion/gay marriage/alligators as pets? Howabout global warming? If you live in Oregon, like me, you've probably heard the same slogans and campaigning about propositions ****ing 49 and 50 for months and months. People want to talk about issues a lot more often than new issues come up.

Wow. That went from brief explanation to ramble to rant pretty fast. Anyway, in summary: I don't really see what the problem is, other than too few people.

 

[Deleted member]

**** your block of text Watches -_-

I don't really care what the hall is called, and I certainly don't think it factors the outcome of the actual content, so whatever

Also Delphiki, are you going to the UCLA tournament on Dec 1st? I'm going, it'd be cool

This Debate Hall ostensibly provides a place for the intelligentsia of SWF to convene and discuss ideas. However, it does NOT gather the best minds, it does NOT have a strong enlistment criteria, and IT DOES NOT PROMOTE THE PROVOCATION OF THOUGHT. Such an organization to me is despicable and rarely worth time. The way I see it, this place is boring and dead for a very good reason. There are better threads in the Rubbish Bin.

Ooh, I didn't even see this..

I tend to think that the Debate Hall is fairly noob-free. If you think it's dead and boring, well.. I wouldn't expect too much from a place like SWF. This is also kind of offensive to CK who's worked hard to keep it going and such, so...

Instead of whine, make some threads that aren't simply your essays you wrote, let's see some topics where it's not just tl;dr, and we can contribute.

 

[KevinM]

So you're whining because of what now, i truly don't understand it.

Are you mad that the topics aren't as openended or original, or are you just mad because you're having a bad day?

 

[Blackadder]

I can't say I really agree with your complaints on the Hall.
The Debate Hall seems relatively active, most of the topics seem interesting enough to debate on, (Though some are a little just plain silly *Cough-Why poetry Fails-Cough*) but most seem fairly stable and fine to me.

As for the whole thing on the Hall being a place for the "intelligentsia of SWF" and "Not gathering the best minds"...well, I honestly don't think it's bad. I like many of the Debaters here, and none of them seem brain-dead. On the other hand, you should REALLY note that it's just a small little forums debating area. No bigger than a High-School Debate Team. You shouldn’t expect NASA in here.

To me you just come off as pissed-off about your own essays getting flamed, which is unfortunate, but not a reason to rant on about how dull and awful the Hall is.

 

[Deleted member]

The Debate Hall seems relatively active, most of the topics seem interesting enough to debate on, (Though some are a little just plain silly *Cough-"Emos" and why we discriminate them-Cough*) but most seem fairly stable and fine to me.

Fixed that for you.

Delphiki, the Ilovephilosophy forums are a better place suited for what you're asking, so I suggest you check that out.

 

[Blackadder]

Fixed that for you.

...Oh yeah.
Good point, and well made.

While on the subject of offering out "Smater" places for Delph to check out, this one seems interesting.

 

[Delphiki]

A lot of the debates tend to ask questions whose answers are based less on speculation than on definitions. That is, many of the debated subjects determine the right or wrong as what has already been written. People are then arguing for or against a pre-existing stance, and not attempting to find their own opinions on the matter.

Recently a couple good debates (I think) were "General Politeness" and "the Good Life". They were good because they were very open ended. Others, like "Who Defines Art?" and "Downloading - Stealing?" had less of a focus on personal interpretation and were not so good. The DLing thread is a very good example of what I mean by the semantic issue. People continually kept trying to define 'stealing' in different ways. I felt that it was completely irrelevant. Sure, the thread asked that....but what did anyone gain in the end?

The Debate Hall discourages too much open-endedness though. We would not be readily received asking a question without providing both our own stance and examples of other possible stances. Moreover, there seems to be an overall unwillingness to focus on any issue which may be more important the the subject of the debate.



On a quick sidenote, this is not about me getting mad about my essays - not only were they written in ignorance (not saying I was wrong in them, but my motives were corrupted at the time of writing) but that was several months ago. Also, now that you mention it, this place does seem like a high school debate team.


Finally an aside to CK: I think that you have achieved your goal of creating a decent SWF Debate Hall. I mean that, purely and honestly. My problem isn't at all with anyone's level of accomplishment. My problem is with idle debate. Why deliberate if not to advise action?

 

[Deleted member]

Also, now that you mention it, this place does seem like a high school debate team.

That's not exactly surprising...

I'm in my 5th year of high school. Victory lap, but still..

In response to your PM, I'm flying there because I live in Canada and not in California, I'm going with my dad on a business trip and just so happen to have Saturday off in a hotel near UCLA. Too bad, I guess.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I could make a long wall of text but I simply don't want to.

Basically, in my opinion, the Debate Hall is boring. There are very few topics I would like to discuss in here and I agree to a margin that the debate hall should be slightly more centered around discussing intelligent topic matter rather than constantly flaming each other or hitting each other with walls of text and cites. I mainly debate OUTSIDE of the Debate Hall.

You'll find most of my long posts that are actually thought out and presented in other topics OUTSIDE of this room. Discussing "lower category" topics like Brawl or whatever wouldn't kill our reputation as long as we discuss it wisely, right? Is it truly that asinine to discuss a topic that might be INTERESTING?

I mean, I'm about as interested as it gets in politics, global warming, and yada yada for a sixteen-year-old but it wouldn't kill us to discuss less important subjects.

 

[Deleted member]

It's very understandable that the debate hall is boring to some. It's just a forum. Some posts are practically novels. But most people who join only join because they enjoy hearing other opinions on topics.

Do you guys think I care if psychology is a science or not? That topic is failing hardcore, but at the VERY least, the people who viewed it mulled the idea over, no matter how ephemeral that may have been. That's good enough for me. I don't have an opinion on that, I heard someone bring it up recently and it occurred to me that they may have a point, and I wanted to hear everyone's views.

Believe it or not, I come to the debate hall to read other opinions to help formulate my own to carry to the real world. It helps a lot.

And of course, I enjoy seeing if my own opinion flies. I get feedback in real life from people who agree and disagree with my posts, and that's cool. I enjoy hearing it, because it helps me prepare for things to come. I don't care what anyone says, joining the debate hall early on really helped me with writing essays and formulating arguments. Who knows why, but it did. I'm grateful to this hall because of that.



But what the debate hall lacks is incentive. I mean this to the people of SWF who see the hall as a waste of time.

Debating should be its own reward (it is to some), but at the same time, I'd like to see something other than a pink name. I'd love to see Debate with your Power 2.0. I'd love to see some kind of sick gavel under my account, regardless if I lost DWYP.

Honestly, I don't know what can be done, and I don't know if anything should be done. I think things are pretty good as it is now, but I'd love to see another tournament. People just aren't as active.

 

[Crimson King]

If you all have a problem with debates being boring, why not take initiative and break that?

 

[Deleted member]

If you all have a problem with debates being boring, why not take initiative and break that?

I think you misunderstood me.. I don't think this hall is boring, but I can certainly see why it would be to some. I don't have the administrative powers to rectify that.

 

[Ophelius]

I debate to learn, not just to argue for or against somebody. It can be interesting at times. And to all of you really uber smart people: They prefer to be called little people. You will one day beg for mercy, and they will consider it.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Wow, older topic.

I have a few points to throw out:

1. The "intelligentsia" of a video game forum is like asking for the greatest minds in a steel mill. You might find some very smart people, but their focus is a lot different from people in MENSA.

2. This room was boring because of a lack of imagination. I'm not saying that I personally resurrected the Hall, but I came in here and banged on some doors, rattled some chains and posted interesting information/junk in new and old threads. I contributed to the dissonance and helped to get people riled, active, interested, amused and angry at the things here. And with that, people suddenly had things to say.

3. If you have a problem with people going off topic, tell them! Direct their attention to the OP, berate them for their idiocy, make fun of their mother, whatever it takes to keep the thread on track and on topic. As an example, in my fifty cal thread DaLiRtud1 tried to take it off track and I did all of the above till he left because he had no argument and I directed Zjiin to the OP when he was off base.

4. Finally, if you want to debate an objective versus a subjective topic then go ahead. Either one gets interesting input and a few times we do all agree in the end (the video games are good debate, never saw the outcome coming on that one, what, with this being a game forum and all). If you have a discussion, instead and people go off base, see #3!

It isn't that hard, people. Find something you believe in, care about or find amusing/annoying and take a side. That's all you really need to create or participate in the debates here.

 

[1337marth]

Not to be mean, but this just sounds like pointless whining to me.

I see it the same way, and if you do not want to be here, meh, but I find it perfectly ok here.