Why can Robin's Fire Jab3 be airdodged?

[fullofParallellines]

My friend will consistently airdodge my fire jab finisher at low percents. Jab2 doesn't apply enough hitstun at some percents and I'm surprised no one has found out about it. This problem doesn't occur with her wind multihit jab, so I looked up and compared frame data between the two moves here.

According to the site, the hitbox for fire jab3 comes out on frame 10 while the hitbox for the wind multihit comes out frame 9. This was interesting because, unless my friend was a computer or the site's data was outdated, that 1 frame difference mattered.

I dont have any recording software on me at the moment so i cant show you any proof right now but i'll try to get a gfycat up soon.

EDIT 1: Inserted two example gifs
GIF #1 showing 3 escapes at midpercent
GIF #2 showing an escape at ~80%

 

[-Xeroskia.]

I feel like with Robin's jab, it's a cool idea to jab once and delay Jab 2 the smallest amount so you can get the flame hit more security. It puts them low enough that they'll get hit by it anyway even if they air-dodge, and Jab 1 has fair enough hitstun to let you do that. But, honestly, I haven't had too much trouble with it missing except for people landing after Jab 2 or floaties popping out after Jab 2 and just being too high.

I'd like to see the gfy as well.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

My friend will consistently airdodge my fire jab finisher at low percents. Jab2 doesn't apply enough hitstun at some percents and I'm surprised no one has found out about it.

I and a few others have complained about it. The general response we got was "but it's actually a buff since you can Wind Jab people now", which is really only true against Sheik, Fox, Bowser, and a handful of others. Everyone else can still escape before the killing blow on Wind Jab.

Robin's Jab got worse in the attempts to buff it.

 

[Meneil]

It's not when jab3 comes out, it's the hitbox. Windjab has a cone-shaped hitbox that is larger than the fire jab. Like Negative said, delaying the hits between jabs is crucial, as it helps an opponent 'fall' back in between each hit. A straight up fire jab at 0 % is very easy to get out of (some characters can even DI to the ground and shield it!). Both Wind and Fire are escapable, but things like %'s, timing, positioning, will effect how 'easy' it is to get out. It's one of those things that's important to watch and adjust, as there's no easy catch-all way of doing them - although for the most part, wind is better at low %s, while fire is better at high.

 

[fullofParallellines]

Got the gifs. My opponent was hit midair because it was easier to get the airdodge out instead of a perfect shield (as you'll see in the first gif). I just came back and read the posts about the firejab not reaching because opponent was too high. I'll try to get some more gifs if you want. These jab combos were performed by holding A instead of buffering 3 A-button presses.
GIF #1 showing 3 escapes at midpercent
GIF #2 showing an escape at ~80%

 

[Raziek]

Robin's Jab got worse in the attempts to buff it.

For the love of god, please stop perpetuating this ludicrous notion.

Dropping out of Fire Jab should RARELY happen if you stagger Jab2 properly, and it basically only causes problems against certain characters. (Really floaty ones like Kirby/Jiggs who pop out of both)

Given the size/weight classes of basically all of the top tiers, the fact that Wind Jab now actually works is a MASSIVE buff, even if some of Fire Jab's consistency was sacrificed.

Robin's Jab did not overall get worse.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

For the love of god, please stop perpetuating this ludicrous notion.

Dropping out of Fire Jab should RARELY happen if you stagger Jab2 properly, and it basically only causes problems against certain characters. (Really floaty ones like Kirby/Jiggs who pop out of both)

Don't mock me. Educate, please.

What is the proper timing, how do you get this to work? Because in my experience I regularly get bopped out of Jab 2 -> Fire Jab and in some cases it seems like I've gotten punished between Jab 1 - > Jab 2.

Editing: And this doesn't just happen with obscure matchups like Jigglypuff. I get naired out of Jab Combo by Mario and other fast-activating aerial characters a lot these days. Fixing this would be a real help to my Robin game because Mario sure as hell isn't an uncommon opponent.

 

[Raziek]

Don't mock me. Educate, please.

What is the proper timing, how do you get this to work? Because in my experience I regularly get bopped out of Jab 2 -> Fire Jab and in some cases it seems like I've gotten punished between Jab 1 - > Jab 2.

Editing: And this doesn't just happen with obscure matchups like Jigglypuff. I get naired out of Jab Combo by Mario and other fast-activating aerial characters a lot these days. Fixing this would be a real help to my Robin game because Mario sure as hell isn't an uncommon opponent.

If you're getting hit out of Jab 2-> Fire Jab it's probably because the jab is literally whiffing as a result of doing it too fast. You shouldn't ever use the 'hold button' method of doing it, as that leads to whiffing an awful lot. Jab1 has enough hitstun that against most characters you have time to hit-confirm it. Against the ones who fall too fast to have time to do that, you can just mash into Wind Jab ANYWAY.

As long as you give them a tiny amount of time to fall into the next hit of the jab, it should work most of the time. Trying to airdodge through it will result in them hitting the ground and getting jabbed anyway in most cases. Yes, some characters can Nair out if you try to stagger it, so you have to use your judgement based on where they are relative to you when you hit them with Jab1, and select the appropriate finisher based on the circumstances at the time.

 

[The_Cardinal]

Don't mock me. Educate, please.

What is the proper timing, how do you get this to work? Because in my experience I regularly get bopped out of Jab 2 -> Fire Jab and in some cases it seems like I've gotten punished between Jab 1 - > Jab 2.

Editing: And this doesn't just happen with obscure matchups like Jigglypuff. I get naired out of Jab Combo by Mario and other fast-activating aerial characters a lot these days. Fixing this would be a real help to my Robin game because Mario sure as hell isn't an uncommon opponent.

I'm afraid there really isn't much to say in regards to the proper timing outside of just pausing a bit between jabs, which several others already said in this thread. And if characters with near instant aerials like Mario just nair out of the jab combo, that has more to do with Mario than the jab itself since Mario can do that with many other jabs as well.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

There might not be 'much to say', but what was said was key to my understanding what was wrong. I've been primarily doing the 'hold A to get an automatic Jab 1, Jab 2, Fire Jab string' method. Attempts to do it manually usually result in me oddly getting Wind Jab if I input A-A-A too fast, or getting bopped out of it if I press it too slow, so I was rather confused.

I still think it's silly that a core move like Jab has to be that complex in its usage, but... it is what it is. I'll give this a try.

@ Raziek and @ The_Cardinal , thank you for helping clear this up! When I get back from work later tonight I'll try to work this in to my game, and who knows, maybe I'll stand corrected on my remarks earlier and won't go around saying that stuff any more.

 

[The_Cardinal]

There might not be 'much to say', but what was said was key to my understanding what was wrong. I've been primarily doing the 'hold A to get an automatic Jab 1, Jab 2, Fire Jab string' method. Attempts to do it manually usually result in me oddly getting Wind Jab if I input A-A-A too fast, or getting bopped out of it if I press it too slow, so I was rather confused.

I still think it's silly that a core move like Jab has to be that complex in its usage, but... it is what it is. I'll give this a try.

@ Raziek and @ The_Cardinal , thank you for helping clear this up! When I get back from work later tonight I'll try to work this in to my game, and who knows, maybe I'll stand corrected on my remarks earlier and won't go around saying that stuff any more.

No problem, although I could've sworn many of us said to do it manually in another thread you were in but that's fine. Anyways, as a rule of thumb across all fighting games it's almost always better to do something manually rather than just holding the button or something similar since that gives you more control over the move such as the timing and buffering.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

No problem, although I could've sworn many of us said to do it manually in another thread you were in but that's fine.

It's possible I was. I may very well have forgotten the discussion though, I've been busy with a lot of things lately. Some of them far heavier and more important than Smash (no, stop, put the pitchforks and torches away I'm not a heretic honest). So if you did tell me and it simply didn't sink in, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to overlook it if you already told me the score on this, just been... really, really distracted. I won't go into details.

Thank you again for your help, it's appreciated!

 

[Raijinken]

Typically I find that it's more productive to use windjab at low-mid percents and firejab at higher. Wind's more reliable at low, fire can kill (or at least buy you some space) at high.

 

[Zareidriel]

I like to use the Wind if they're very close to your body, and Fire if they're a little farther away.