Whirling Fortress

[Knee Smasher]

As probably by far the single best out-of-shield move in the entire game, I feel that this is such an amazing move that it deserves its own thread.

 

[S_B]

It's the best punisher Bowser has, has pretty good priority and is even good for punishing attempted aerials as Bowser's hurbox becomes tiny when he uses it.

It's painful to watch Bowsers in replays who don't use it, even during golden opportunities to do so...

 

[Anragon]

I Up-B OoS every single time I blocked a poorly spaced attack. It deals 11% DUDE IF YOU DO IT LIKE 8 TIMES IT'S 80% DAMAGE DONE !
Yes it is that amazing.

Up-B is life until Sakurai fixes Jump OoS (which make a lot of people ragequit instantly)

 

[Raiden mk-II]

It makes the perfect camping move too. It can kill eventually at 130-150%, so if you're dealing with a difficult opponent, abuse this move after shielding attacks (just watch out for that annoying jump out of shield problem that @ Anragon pointed out).

 

[S_B]

Yeah, I wish you could do it with tap to jump off, but still, this move is probably the best thing Bowser has going for him.

It's also one of his safest grounded moves, period end. Unlike Brawl's where, if you missed the opening hit, you were likely to be punished, grounded fortress can pull the enemy in and then launch them for its ENTIRE duration.

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah, I wish you could do it with tap to jump off

You can, press up while in shield, then jump and press b, quickly enough so that the jump doesn't come out, but slow enough so that you don't put the inputs in too closely together. You can't buffer multiple inputs, so if both inputs are too close together during attacks with good shield stun, you'll just jump OOS instead and probably get punished.

 

[MrEh]

Spoiler

It's been like 13 years guys...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Well, not everyone has played the Smash games since the beginning...

 

[S_B]

Spoiler

It's been like 13 years guys...

13 years of what? Fortress? Tap to jump into OOS fortress?

Fortress ain't the same move it was 13 years ago, and this sure as hell ain't the same Bowser...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Well, not everyone has played the Smash games since the beginning...

Us old guys tend to forget that. My little cousin has never seen grounded fortress before because his friends, young as they are, never use the move grounded. So he played me online all the way from Boston and discovered that it exists. Asked me a few questions before refusing the fight me ever again.

 

[Jerodak]

The loss of I-frames on start-up was a major bummer for me in the beginning, I've gotten more and more used to it, but dropping the habit of trying to up-b out of obnoxious attacks like Yoshi Dair is important. However, because fortress isn't as good anymore, it's easier to look into other defensive punish options since you may as well. Especially since everything else OOS seem to have gotten better.

 

[MrEh]

Well, not everyone has played the Smash games since the beginning...

http://smashboards.com/threads/bowsers-moveset-data-discussion-update-10-31-14.368511/page-7

There's a perfectly good thread for this kind of thing.

Fortress ain't the same move it was 13 years ago, and this sure as hell ain't the same Bowser...

How is Bowser being different even relevant? Answer: it's not.

What is relevant here is Fortress being a good OoS move. Which it has been for the past 3 games.

Up-B is life until Sakurai fixes Jump OoS (which make a lot of people ragequit instantly)

They won't remove this because it's an intended game mechanic.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

They won't remove this because it's an intended game mechanic.

How can you be so sure that it is? And not everyone goes to Smashboards, let alone goes to the 7th page of a topic, just to obtain the information that we more knowledgeable players discovered.

 

[MrEh]

Jumping OoS has been a mechanic in every Smash game since 64.

As further proof that this is an intentional mechanic, they finally fixed Yoshi so that he can jump OoS again for the first time since 64. That means that Nintendo intentionally made sure that everyone could jump OoS in this game.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I think what @ Anragon was referring to is trying to do Fortress out of shield after shielding a high shieldstun move. Doing the inputs too quickly will result in you jumping.

 

[MrEh]

No, he's referring to using Jump Canceled Fortress OoS, since that's how you do most stuff OoS to begin with.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

In that case, it was a misunderstanding. I've seen a lot of complaints about the input lag I mentioned, and I thought that was what he was talking about.

 

[S_B]

How is Bowser being different even relevant? Answer: it's not.

Because it's a new game, Bowser has changed and yet we still have fortress OOS?

This **** ain't guaranteed...

 

[MrEh]

Because it's a new game, Bowser has changed and yet we still have fortress OOS?

This **** ain't guaranteed...

We still DO have Fortress OoS. It's still good. It's just not hilariously good like before.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I find it funny that sometimes opponents will slip out of the Fortress and trip... seemingly at random. Is there any reason behind this or am I just awful at using Fortress against ZSS, Jigglypuff, Marth, Palutena, and Luigi?

 

[MrEh]

It just seems to be something that happens occasionally.

If you can react to the trip, you can go for a mixup. It's honestly kind of nice when it happens.

 

[Jerodak]

It just seems to be something that happens occasionally.

If you can react to the trip, you can go for a mixup. It's honestly kind of nice when it happens.

Yeah I like that they added that in, instead of the opponent just popping out and smashing you.

 

[S_B]

We still DO have Fortress OoS. It's still good. It's just not hilariously good like before.

I know, I'm just saying that, given the recent nerf to Bowsercide, I'm thankful for every decent move Bowser retains...

 

[MrEh]

I know, I'm just saying that, given the recent nerf to Bowsercide, I'm thankful for every decent move Bowser retains...

The nerf to Bowserciding was irrelevant. The nerf to Klaw as a move was killer though.

 

[S_B]

The nerf to Bowserciding was irrelevant. The nerf to Klaw as a move was killer though.

Well, it sucks to lose it for online purposes as well.

But yeah, after they already reduced klaw's hitbox, I feel like nothing is safe.

If they're going to nerf Bowsercide with the justification that too many new players were getting killed by it because they didn't know they could steer the move, they could just as easily justify nerfing anything else of Bowser's because "new players didn't realize they could shield it".

I don't know if you've played any MMOs in the past (or any other game with balance patches), but sometimes developers will eat a big pile of moron sandwiches and nerf/buff classes/characters in such mind-bogglingly idiotic ways that you decide to go play something else for a while until they come to their senses and change it back.

And sometimes, they never do...

 

[MrEh]

You mean most of the time they never do. Developers rarely ever undo a change they made, because they can't admit that they were wrong.

This is just something we'll likely have to deal with. And honestly, the nerf to Bowsercide means little in competitive play. Bowsercides never mattered before, and they definitely doesn't matter now that it's ridiculously hard to Klaw someone in the first place.

 

[B!squick]

You mean most of the time they never do. Developers rarely ever undo a change they made, because they can't admit that they were wrong.

This is just something we'll likely have to deal with. And honestly, the nerf to Bowsercide means little in competitive play. Bowsercides never mattered before, and they definitely doesn't matter now that it's ridiculously hard to Klaw someone in the first place.

Tell that to Rend.

You know, the more I play Bowser, the more I feel like he's worse now. Klaw has deplorable range and even if it didn't we'd still lack grab armor, can't grab release, no FSmash draw back animation, no Fortress invincibility (kinda counters the logic of a move called "fortress"). I think the only thing keeping Bowser treading water is all the nerfs to common problem characters like MK, D3, and Marth and a lot of the new characters being projectile spam trains which is something we're use to. And if you're new to Smash you'll get use to it pretty fast, trust me.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

@ B!squick I think Bowser will undergo some more changes in future patches. Sure, he's balanced, but he's got these annoying flaws that make him easily punishable. Flaws not related to his laggy moves. Things like the loss of I-frames on his Fortress, as you mentioned and the difficulty of landing Klaw to use Flying Slam. Also, as I mentioned on the Bowser improvement topic, he can greatly benefit from high priority on his laggier moves.

 

[B!squick]

His titanium arms wont even count for much once people figure out how easy it is to just SH and punch him in the schnoz.

 

[S_B]

You mean most of the time they never do. Developers rarely ever undo a change they made, because they can't admit that they were wrong.

Valve reversing the 50 HP on the pyro's backburner was an epic moment in gaming history, yes.

This is just something we'll likely have to deal with. And honestly, the nerf to Bowsercide means little in competitive play. Bowsercides never mattered before, and they definitely doesn't matter now that it's ridiculously hard to Klaw someone in the first place.

That raises the question: since the opponent has more control over the flying slam with lower %, what happens in a tournament if Bowser klaws, say, a Kirby player who then carries him over the edge with him, jumps out of the Bowsercide and recovers to the stage? Would the officials tell the Kirby player that he has to SD at that point?

 

[B!squick]

That raises the question: since the opponent has more control over the flying slam with lower %, what happens in a tournament if Bowser klaws, say, a Kirby player who then carries him over the edge with him, jumps out of the Bowsercide and recovers to the stage? Would the officials tell the Kirby player that he has to SD at that point?

I hadn't even thought about what a TO will have to do in response to this dumb bug until Nintendo gets around to patching their patch. But I imagine play will continue as normal. No one isn't going to take advantage of this given the opportunity and TOs generally can't police every single game.

In short, be very very careful if you plan on using Bower in a tournament in the near future.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally if they changed Klaw to grab up close and claw swipe anywhere isn't in grab range but in the hitbox of Bowser's hand that would be fine. And yeah Fortress should be invincible or intangible. And only vulnerable underneath him which would only be in the air. And no one usually uses Fortress in the air.

But if they nerfed Dedede's Gordo maybe they can buff Bowser's Tough Guy ability.

 

[MrEh]

You know, the more I play Bowser, the more I feel like he's worse now. Klaw has deplorable range and even if it didn't we'd still lack grab armor, can't grab release, no FSmash draw back animation, no Fortress invincibility (kinda counters the logic of a move called "fortress"). I think the only thing keeping Bowser treading water is all the nerfs to common problem characters like MK, D3, and Marth and a lot of the new characters being projectile spam trains which is something we're use to. And if you're new to Smash you'll get use to it pretty fast, trust me.

I actually agree. Bowser is very likely a WORSE character in a game that is overall more balanced, so he will be higher in the tier list to compensate. This is of course, assuming we're just using vanilla moves. With Dash Klaw/Dash Slash, everything changes.

Valve reversing the 50 HP on the pyro's backburner was an epic moment in gaming history, yes.

That raises the question: since the opponent has more control over the flying slam with lower %, what happens in a tournament if Bowser klaws, say, a Kirby player who then carries him over the edge with him, jumps out of the Bowsercide and recovers to the stage? Would the officials tell the Kirby player that he has to SD at that point?

Valve is also one of the few remaining cool companies around.

The match would be given to Kirby. Since it was the Bowser players choice to poorly use Klaw in that situation. There is no suicide clause in our current rulesets, so the Bowser player will have to be more conscious on when to use Klaws when he's at higher percents.

I hadn't even thought about what a TO will have to do in response to this dumb bug until Nintendo gets around to patching their patch. But I imagine play will continue as normal. No one isn't going to take advantage of this given the opportunity and TOs generally can't police every single game.

In short, be very very careful if you plan on using Bower in a tournament in the near future.

Hopefully, it'll come down to Nintendo patching the game so that Bowser wins again (unlikely), or they patch the game so that the match ends in sudden death. Once the sudden death starts happening all the time, TOs will most likely implement the Bowsercide clause again.

Personally if they changed Klaw to grab up close and claw swipe anywhere isn't in grab range but in the hitbox of Bowser's hand that would be fine. And yeah Fortress should be invincible or intangible. And only vulnerable underneath him which would only be in the air. And no one usually uses Fortress in the air.

But if they nerfed Dedede's Gordo maybe they can buff Bowser's Tough Guy ability.

I'm fine for them leaving grounded Klaw the same range, since it's supposed to be a greedier normal grab. However, air Klaw should probably get a hitbox buff. Nothing ridiculous like how it was in Brawl though. Hell, even making the hitbox slightly larger vertically would be fantastic in making the move actually usable.

I'm torn about them buffing Tough Guy though, because this could become a toxic mechanic very very fast. They should honesty just make Tough Guy work at all percents, because it's relevant against so few moves to begin with. The moves it actually IS relevant against usually suck against Bowser in general. (Yeah, let's trade jabs against Bowser. That's always a good idea right?)

 

[S_B]

Again, I'd rather tough guy just not make Bowser move through molasses while he's getting hit because he'll actually stand there and take MORE hits than if he was just getting knocked away, especially if you started an attack and now you have to watch it play out in slow motion...

 

[Anragon]

I wish someone wasn't too lazy to make a thread and analyze how "weak" attacks interact with Though Guy.

...

Don't look at me like that man.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'm already looking at you. But if I have time and find a day to get with a buddy of mine maybe I can do some testing and see what attacks Bowser can still move through. But what actions Bowser can take seem limited. It would be great if we could get a Full charge forward smash during such instances.

 

[Jerodak]

I wish someone wasn't too lazy to make a thread and analyze how "weak" attacks interact with Though Guy.

...

Don't look at me like that man.

I was actually already considering doing this, I'll have something in the metagame discussion thread by the end of the day.

EDIT: On that note, it's probably about time to compile all the new information that's been put together in the forums so far, so I'll get started on that too.