Which set of skills do you think will carry over better to SSB4? Melee, 64, or Brawl?

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm a competitive player but do not attend tournaments (I live in Japan and sometimes play at gatherings here but rarely do I enter or bother seeking out tournaments).

I've played all 3 versions a crap-ton like everyone else with the intent of being competitive in all 3. The 3 games have staggering differences in their meta-game despite being the same franchise.

Essentially, I'm curious which game you believe (at this point with the little information we have), will lend it's credence better to getting a quicker foot hold on the SSB4 meta.

Do you think Melee's super fast, combo-filled high tech meta will lead to the best early SSB4 performance? Maybe 64's high risk but high reward/punishment experience will give those players an edge? Maybe a Brawl pro's spacing and aerial game will be a head start?

Maybe someone who has decent competitive experience with all 3, would obviously transition easier, but I'm going for a hypothetical here.

If we took the best melee, 64, and Brawl player of their respective games, and each player (hypothetically) had only ever played their specialty version...who do you think would win out overall against the other two assuming their first time playing SSB4 in each match.

 

[Empyrean]

Obviously someone prominent in all Smash titles (read: M2K) will have the easiest time adapting to a new set of mechanics and characters.

Honestly, I have a gut feeling that competitive players coming from different titles will be proficient in different aspects of the game. Brawl players will have an easier time with the overall mechanics and are already familiar with some of the characters who weren't changed much. With hitstun back, Melee players will most probably have a better understanding of combos and how to extend them to their full potential. 64 players are beasts, no need to even doubt them. It might also be interesting to note that PM players could potentially have an easier time handling gimmicks and such and won't come to surprises as often as players from other games.

As for the meta itself, I think Sakurai has succeeded in creating a hybrid of all previous entries, like he intended to do. It's hard to say at this point since the game isn't even released, but that's just a feeling I get when watching all the footage we have. The inputs-per-minute won't be as high as Melee, and the game won't be as floaty as Brawl. It will most likely require its own set of skills to master and exploits to use.

And of course, a player from any game with good fundamentals will have no trouble transferring them to Smash 4, since it still is a Smash game nonetheless.

 

[LancerStaff]

Brawl, seeing that SSB4 takes quite a bit from it and won't have things like L-canceling, Wavedashing, or ridiculous SSB64 hitstun.

INB4 Melee vs X flame-war.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Brawl, seeing that SSB4 takes quite a bit from it and won't have things like L-canceling, Wavedashing, or ridiculous SSB64 hitstun.

INB4 Melee vs X flame-war.

I think that the game will have L-canceling. If its trying to get to a more competitive level than I think it would. But there is really no way of telling right now.

I don't see why it would take specific skills from any of the games. None of them relate too heavily from the next. It all depends on things that we don't know yet. If the game is campy then Brawl. If its more based on offense then Melee. If there aren't any advanced techniques and gameplay is strictly basic than 64. We really don't know and there's not much way of knowing.

 

[SuruStorm]

I think that the game will have L-canceling. If its trying to get to a more competitive level than I think it would. But there is really no way of telling right now.

I don't see why it would take specific skills from any of the games. None of them relate too heavily from the next. It all depends on things that we don't know yet. If the game is campy then Brawl. If its more based on offense then Melee. If there aren't any advanced techniques and gameplay is strictly basic than 64. We really don't know and there's not much way of knowing.

I don't think that would be the competitive edge they'd go for, if you're looking for difficult melee mechanics, wavedashing is probably the best example. I say this because all that L-canceling is is a way to shorten aerial attacks, and is simply a nuisance to learn. Wavedashing on the other hand, takes skill to learn and yet more skill to implement, I think it is a much greater contribution to the skill cap overall.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think that the game will have L-canceling. If its trying to get to a more competitive level than I think it would. But there is really no way of telling right now.

I don't see why it would take specific skills from any of the games. None of them relate too heavily from the next. It all depends on things that we don't know yet. If the game is campy then Brawl. If its more based on offense then Melee. If there aren't any advanced techniques and gameplay is strictly basic than 64. We really don't know and there's not much way of knowing.

Sakurai has always had a "simpler is better" mentality. Dunno why in the world it was ever implemented, but it's most definitely not the most simple solution. Since it was removed from Brawl I doubt it'd get reimplemented in remotely the same way, if at all.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Sakurai has always had a "simpler is better" mentality. Dunno why in the world it was ever implemented, but it's most definitely not the most simple solution. Since it was removed from Brawl I doubt it'd get reimplemented in remotely the same way, if at all.

I see your point. I don't think that its gone for good though. It could be in this one since Smash 4 is supposed to be in between Brawl and Melee. Smash 4 could take mechanics from both Brawl and Melee. Brawl took it out because they wanted newer players to have a better chance at winning. Evidence for this is the implementation of tripping. If L-canceling is taken from Smash 4 I would suspect that it is in the next one since there seems to be a trend of more tech skill being added from Brawl. But thats my own opinion.

 

[ChikoLad]

There should be an "all of the above" option.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think that the game will have L-canceling. If its trying to get to a more competitive level than I think it would. But there is really no way of telling right now.

I don't see why it would take specific skills from any of the games. None of them relate too heavily from the next. It all depends on things that we don't know yet. If the game is campy then Brawl. If its more based on offense then Melee. If there aren't any advanced techniques and gameplay is strictly basic than 64. We really don't know and there's not much way of knowing.

So far it has auto canceling . And less landing lag

 

[LancerStaff]

I see your point. I don't think that its gone for good though. It could be in this one since Smash 4 is supposed to be in between Brawl and Melee. Smash 4 could take mechanics from both Brawl and Melee. Brawl took it out because they wanted newer players to have a better chance at winning. Evidence for this is the implementation of tripping. If L-canceling is taken from Smash 4 I would suspect that it is in the next one since there seems to be a trend of more tech skill being added from Brawl. But thats my own opinion.

Each game removes "techs" from the previous entry to shrink the gap between casual and hardcore, something SSB has been trying to do since the beginning because of Sakurai's philosophy and the then-dying overly hardcore fighting game market. And of course, we have a pattern of L-canceling getting worse from game to game, so naturally L-canceling in the next game will increase lag by 50%.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

So far it has auto canceling . And less landing lag

Can you really tell if it has auto canceling? With the footage given I can't tell. Do you have any evidence?

Each game removes "techs" from the previous entry to shrink the gap between casual and hardcore, something SSB has been trying to do since the beginning because of Sakurai's philosophy and the then-dying overly hardcore fighting game market. And of course, we have a pattern of L-canceling getting worse from game to game, so naturally L-canceling in the next game will increase lag by 50%.

Each game removes techs (other than the gap between 64 and Melee. I guess you could argue ledge canceling taunts lol). But they add their own. Brawl added plenty of its own tech. Power shielding moves, pivot grabbing, input buffering, RAR, and other exploits like FoG, B/DACUS and other stuff. Those are a lot of things to master even in Brawl and I don't see things purposely implemented to be taken out in Smash 4. While Brawl removed wavedashing, L-canceling, and reflective power-shields, it also added plenty of other nuances in its own right. Smash 4 will have things built upon those things added in Brawl and maybe add tech from Melee. While tech skill will come from Brawl, gameplay style will most likely come from Melee.

 

[LancerStaff]

Can you really tell if it has auto canceling? With the footage given I can't tell. Do you have any evidence?


Each game removes techs (other than the gap between 64 and Melee. I guess you could argue ledge canceling taunts lol). But they add their own. Brawl added plenty of its own tech. Power shielding moves, pivot grabbing, input buffering, RAR, and other exploits like FoG, B/DACUS and other stuff. Those are a lot of things to master even in Brawl and I don't see things purposely implemented to be taken out in Smash 4. While Brawl removed wavedashing, L-canceling, and reflective power-shields, it also added plenty of other nuances in its own right. Smash 4 will have things built upon those things added in Brawl and maybe add tech from Melee. While tech skill will come from Brawl, gameplay style will most likely come from Melee.

I'd chalk up all the "techs" added to being simple glitches caused by the new mechanics, besides the obviously intentional pivot grabbing and such. I imagine Sakurai won't be done with SSB until it becomes a totally "tech" free game as he invisioned, and this game might end up much closer to it due to it mostly building off of Brawl and being between the two extremes. Let's be honest here, the only two significant changes that don't involve pure stats are the ledge mechanics and redirecting physical projectiles, and I don't see any significant "techs" coming from them.

 

[Gameboi834]

I imagine Sakurai won't be done with SSB until it becomes a totally "tech" free game as he invisioned

Sakurai literally high-lighted the tech (Ukemi/breakfall) in Brawl, as well as several other technical moves (which is what a tech is, a technical move). A fighting game without technical moves ceases to be a fighting game; I highly doubt he started off making a fighting game envisioning it to not have technical moves.

 

[Morbi]

I agree with everyone else, Brawl is probably going to be the greatest source of inspiration. I mean, everything will carry over, I just believe that Brawl skills will be the most overt.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai literally high-lighted the tech (Ukemi/breakfall) in Brawl, as well as several other technical moves (which is what a tech is, a technical move). A fighting game without technical moves ceases to be a fighting game; I highly doubt he started off making a fighting game envisioning it to not have technical moves.

Okay... When I say "tech" in quotes like this, I'm talking about the less intentional things like the DACUS and glidetossing. Actual moves like the Ukemi and pivotgrabbing are actual moves. And no, fighting games don't require overly complicated imputs. You know what people's complaints for SSB64 usually were? That it wasn't a traditional fighting game and didn't require much skill at lower levels. SSB is the un-fighting game that seeks to completely turn conventions on their heads.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

There should be an "all of the above" option.

No, there shouldn't, since that would be you missing the point of the question which is which game individually would lend itself the best to SSB4.

Obviously those who are good at adapting to multiple games (especially smash games) period will probably adapt quickest. That would be a boring answer.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Can you really tell if it has auto canceling? With the footage given I can't tell. Do you have any evidence?


Each game removes techs (other than the gap between 64 and Melee. I guess you could argue ledge canceling taunts lol). But they add their own. Brawl added plenty of its own tech. Power shielding moves, pivot grabbing, input buffering, RAR, and other exploits like FoG, B/DACUS and other stuff. Those are a lot of things to master even in Brawl and I don't see things purposely implemented to be taken out in Smash 4. While Brawl removed wavedashing, L-canceling, and reflective power-shields, it also added plenty of other nuances in its own right. Smash 4 will have things built upon those things added in Brawl and maybe add tech from Melee. While tech skill will come from Brawl, gameplay style will most likely come from Melee.

alas i don't have a link but moves like bowser back air has a decent amount of and lag not alot though if l canceling was around i can't imagine why it would not be used.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

alas i don't have a link but moves like bowser back air has a decent amount of and lag not alot though if l canceling was around i can't imagine why it would not be used.

They normally wouldn't do stuff like that in pre-release footage. Thats just a Nintendo thing. They normally keep gameplay at a shallow level when they show it to the public. They changed Bowsers back-air too so it probably wouldn't have the same ending lag as his old back-air.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

They normally wouldn't do stuff like that in pre-release footage. Thats just a Nintendo thing. They normally keep gameplay at a shallow level when they show it to the public. They changed Bowsers back-air too so it probably wouldn't have the same ending lag as his old back-air.

yeah i was talking about the new b air Xd i guess i did not make it clear.
But yeah ur right nintendo dose do that type of stuff. Just give me a reason to not use L canceling then ill be happy with its inclusion.

 

[KatKit]

None. Forget everything you know (aside from the basics) and you won't get screwed over.

I think that this game is going to have its own way of doing things.

 

[ChikoLad]

No, there shouldn't, since that would be you missing the point of the question which is which game individually would lend itself the best to SSB4.

Obviously those who are good at adapting to multiple games (especially smash games) period will probably adapt quickest. That would be a boring answer.

Or maybe, just maybe, you aren't willing to acknowledge the fact that Smash 4 is going to be it's own beast entirely, and that it probably won't feel overly similar to any particular game of the past.

Anyone who's played a previous Smash game will transfer over nicely. Beyond that, Smash 4 is going to have plenty of it's own intricacies and techs we will learn and develop. No one will feel particularly advantaged, especially with the newcomers to consider.

Besides, the question is redundant - chances are that most Smash fans have played at least 2 of the previous entries. Nobody's transition will be handicapped. So an "all of the above" option is valid (and the most objectively correct).

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Or maybe, just maybe, you aren't willing to acknowledge the fact that Smash 4 is going to be it's own beast entirely, and that it probably won't feel overly similar to any particular game of the past.

Anyone who's played a previous Smash game will transfer over nicely. Beyond that, Smash 4 is going to have plenty of it's own intricacies and techs we will learn and develop. No one will feel particularly advantaged, especially with the newcomers to consider.

Besides, the question is redundant - chances are that most Smash fans have played at least 2 of the previous entries. Nobody's transition will be handicapped. So an "all of the above" option is valid (and the most objectively correct).

Or maybe...not.

I'm perfectly open to the idea that Smash 4 opens up a brand new style of play (in fact, that's what I want more than anything else).

The fact of the matter however, is it's not that different of a game, watching it easily gives you similar impressions to watching that of a smash match from the other iterations, so it goes without saying that it will borrow elements from previous games, even logically.

I popped the question simply to see what version of the game people might practice with more in order to prepare for SSB4. We obviously can't practice with SSB4, but nobody who's serious about the upcoming game wants to go in to SSB4 not having played any smash for months because "it's going to be totally different anyway".

Honestly, you don't have to let the point soar so far over your head, it's just a hypothetical question out of curiosity. There's no reason you gotta be a fun-absorber.

 

[Morbi]

Or maybe...not.

I'm perfectly open to the idea that Smash 4 opens up a brand new style of play (in fact, that's what I want more than anything else).

The fact of the matter however, is it's not that different of a game, watching it easily gives you similar impressions to watching that of a smash match from the other iterations, so it goes without saying that it will borrow elements from previous games, even logically.

I popped the question simply to see what version of the game people might practice with more in order to prepare for SSB4. We obviously can't practice with SSB4, but nobody who's serious about the upcoming game wants to go in to SSB4 not having played any smash for months because "it's going to be totally different anyway".

Honestly, you don't have to let the point soar so far over your head, it's just a hypothetical question out of curiosity. There's no reason you gotta be a fun-absorber.

I am currently practicing Project M in anticipation for Smash 4, but I feel as though it will have a meta-game closer to Brawl.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I am currently practicing Project M in anticipation for Smash 4, but I feel as though it will have a meta-game closer to Brawl.

Im sure that we can't accurately practice for smash 4 with any of the predecessors

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Im sure that we can't accurately practice for smash 4 with any of the predecessors

Uuuuugh my gosh. Of course not. SSB4 will be a unique game in its own way, so obviously without playing it there will be a certain level of prepared-ness we cannot reach.

Yet people are going to practice with something. Which version do you think would be the most helpful?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Uuuuugh my gosh. Of course not. SSB4 will be a unique game in its own way, so obviously without play it there will be a certain level of prepared-ness we cannot reach.

Yet people are going to practice with something. Which version do you think would be the most helpful?

I i understood the point of the tread. its just that morbid seemed hesitant on how smash4 will play so im just trying to put that worry to rest. my apologies