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Where Should SSB64 Go?

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Jan 26, 2013
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Luigi sucks
Just something I was wondering after reading this on the miom fb page:

"I want to talk about something that has been personally bugging me for quite some time. Before I go any further, let me say this isn't targeting anyone in particular, or an event that happened recently. This is a general statement to all the past perpetrators I've witnessed for years:

If you know you're going to be playing on stream and you don't feel like putting your all into it, do us all a favor and just forfeit next time. Its a slap in the face to the T.O. that put all their time and resources into making the event possible. A spit in the face to the streamers that buy tons of expensive equipment, then lug it over to the venue to put on a show for the viewers at home and potential sponsors. Its disrespectful to the commentators that spend most of their time at the tourney on the mic to have to sit through it.

Think about it, your job compared to everyone else isn't that hard. All you have to do is play your best. You don't have to look for people to report their matches, tell people to stop playing friendlies to get a tourney set going, having to setup the stream, making sure camera shots are spot on, going through the stressful task of trying to remain entertaining and insightful for hours on end in front of thousands of viewers.

You only have one job, and that job is to play for real. Doesn't matter what happens behind doors, just put on a good show. Treat grassroots events like preparation for the big leagues in the future (where they don't take things like that lightly.) I understand playing for long periods of time is an endurance test, but that doesn't warrant playing obviously sub par when people know what you're capable of. Be more considerate of others please.

Thank you.

Apex | D1"

Basically, what I got from that is that their community is at a point where they have to worry about things like this to the serious extent that they do if they wish to keep on growing. This is just one example, and it's not an extreme example or anything, but there are other scenarios where some of those issues become huge flame wars (the comment section on that post is... phew) on smashboards/reddit/fb. All of that, plus the ****load of personal arguments that go on daily over on Melee's side, ends up turning what would be regular situations for us (64) into really ****ty situations for them.

I think that what attracts me the most about the ssb64 scene is that it's not so big that stuff like this happens. Instead, it's small enough that everyone seems to know each other, but not so small (anymore) that there are no tournaments or just general activity from the community.

I'm not saying that I don't want ssb64 to grow or anything, but our size certainly helps this community avoid some problems that pretty much every other competitive community runs into, and maybe they run into them a bit too often (Melee being the 'closest' one to this one).

What do you guys think?
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
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nj
it's small enough that everyone seems to know each other

this is what draws me in.

but what do you mean where should ssb64 go? i still think we're largely regarded as a side instead of a main event. i still think people look at the game as too simple or lacking. i still think that because of our size, we're brushed aside as unimportant.

we don't have weekly tournaments. melee and brawl to's, you want to make sure you get more entrants? incorporate 64. i'd be at so many events in jersey if they hosted 64 alongside.

with regard to streaming and having a desire for players to perform as best they can - don't ask for something like that and then complain about pika dittos. ya dig?
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Luigi sucks
What I mean was that SSB64 IS growing, but do you guys want it to be like that? Wouldn't you miss what we have now?
 

Maliki

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
618
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New york
I like the fact that everyone knows eachother. But I think that people treat 64 as a less significant game and use it as a side events and with time we will become a main event. the scene is growing so the community will probably get noticed as a more competitive game.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
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Feb 8, 2012
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nj
What I mean was that SSB64 IS growing, but do you guys want it to be like that? Wouldn't you miss what we have now?
well, we've grown since apex, and we've kept the same kind of attitude/communality that was there before. actually, it may've gotten even stronger and tighter.

the biggest thing is what kinds of people are drawn into the community and how they treat everyone else. thus far, the newer folk, myself included, are all quite chill. s'long as that precedent is followed, no problems with growing.
 

KeroKeroppi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
2,060
Location
New York
Just something I was wondering after reading this on the miom fb page:

"If you know you're going to be playing on stream and you don't feel like putting your all into it, do us all a favor and just forfeit next time. Its a slap in the face to the T.O. that put all their time and resources into making the event possible. A spit in the face to the streamers that buy tons of expensive equipment, then lug it over to the venue to put on a show for the viewers at home and potential sponsors. Its disrespectful to the commentators that spend most of their time at the tourney on the mic to have to sit through it.

Think about it, your job compared to everyone else isn't that hard. All you have to do is play your best. You don't have to look for people to report their matches, tell people to stop playing friendlies to get a tourney set going, having to setup the stream, making sure camera shots are spot on, going through the stressful task of trying to remain entertaining and insightful for hours on end in front of thousands of viewers.

You only have one job, and that job is to play for real. Doesn't matter what happens behind doors, just put on a good show. Treat grassroots events like preparation for the big leagues in the future (where they don't take things like that lightly.) I understand playing for long periods of time is an endurance test, but that doesn't warrant playing obviously sub par when people know what you're capable of. Be more considerate of others please.

Thank you.

Apex | D1"

My "job" as an SSB player is to play the game how I want to play the game. I have no obligations to impress the viewers. I have no obligations to give my opponent my best shot. I have no obligations to satisfy the wishes of the TOs, the commentators, or the streamers. My only obligation is to play the game exactly the way I want to play it.

Personally, I don't give a **** if the people watching my games aren't happy with the way i'm playing. I'm not playing for them. If they're not satisfied with the way i play, it means nothing to me.

The kid I played first round at Rolling Thunder was new to the 64 scene. In the first game i used Ness. I took three of his stocks and only received 6%. What happened next? I let him take me to last stock, high damage of both games. Why? Because i could tell that after the first three stocks of the first game he wasn't having fun. Because double 5 stocking him would kill his tourney experience. Because i thought that absolutely destroying a new player like that wouldn't be right.

That set wasn't being streamed for thousands of people. It wasn't recorded. I doubt anyone was even watching. Would i have done the same thing had it been streamed for thousands of people? Absolutely.

The games between me and that kid were a lot of fun. He was happy and that made me happy. I knew that i would make it a lot further in the bracket than he would and I knew that i would play a lot of really fun, really intense sets that night.

Purposely playing worse provided someone with an opportunity to experience a really fun, really intense set that they probably wouldn't have experienced otherwise. If that makes the TOs, the commentators, thousands of viewers, and the streamers mad at me, so be it. They're not playing the game, I am.
 

Skrlx

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
2,673
I think you're just bluffing and some noob almost beat you.

LMMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOrollf
 

Maliki

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Apr 3, 2013
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618
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New york
I agree with Kero on playing the game I want to play not trying to
Impress anyone or make the TOs happy. Also I saw Kero vs that kid while he was using ness and didnt think you were sandbagging just thought you were getting a beat down by a n00b
 

Sedda

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Luigi sucks
Nah Fire, this was just an example of the many things that go on once the scene gets bigger. Collusion is one of them, but as a whole I feel like that post by D1 kinda shows the tone that their community has set for these types of issues.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
I think its a **** move if people get to like grand finals and then do stuff like go secondary's or tertiary's or whatever just because that's the way they want to do it. Sure you can say "i don't care what everyone else thinks or wants" but that is reflecting bad on our community and is being a ****. Letting a noob have fun on a non stream game is fine, messing around in finals on stream is pretty dumb/selfish/poor sportsmanship to all of the players who didn't make it that far.

IMO
 

Yobolight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
1,126
I think this "D1" guy is referring specifically to collusion and you (Sedda) just massively misrepresented him.
 

bloodpeach

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 30, 2012
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346
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Philadelphia PA
If you have a problem with the way someone is playing in GF maybe next time you should beat them.

Every major US 64 tourney within the past few years has had someone playing a 'sedcondary' or otherwise not trying their ABSOLUTE HARDEST TO WIN in grand finals.

The only way collusion can even become an issue is if money is more valued than fun, whether in terms of cash prizes or in terms of stream viewers. I personally am not looking forward to a future where ISAI is accused of collusion because he doesn't play pika in GF.

These are the sorts of things I think sedda is trying to get us to discuss, and to brush it off as only related to collusion is missing the bigger picture. We've already had stream administrators come here and tell us that we shouldn't be allowed to have kb adapters because they're inconvinient for the stream. As 64 grows more popular, I think these sorts of things will only happen more often.

P.S.
D1 said:
You only have one job, and that job is to play for real. Doesn't matter what happens behind doors, just put on a good show.
Translation: Collusion or whatever else is OK, so long as we still get our advertising $$$.
The 'Collusion Problem' is a problem with unentertaining streams, not sportsmanship.


 

clubbadubba

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I'm cool with someone going secondary for an entire tournament or something like that. I don't like the idea of someone going high tier the whole tournament and barely making it into GF, then switching to low tier's for the hell of it. IMO that is poor sportsmanship. And as far as our community is concerned, playing well and playing seriously would increase our growth the most, so to deprive our community of that I think is fairly selfish. That's just my 2 cents.

As far as this thread, I'm not really sure what the initial question was? As far as I can tell it was "are you okay with the 64 community growing despite the problems that occur with larger communities?" If that's the question, then 100% absolutely yes. Larger community == more players == better players == larger tournaments == more hype tournaments == more streamed games == BEST.
 

Olikus

Smash Champion
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As far as this thread, I'm not really sure what the initial question was? As far as I can tell it was "are you okay with the 64 community growing despite the problems that occur with larger communities?" If that's the question, then 100% absolutely yes. Larger community == more players == better players == larger tournaments == more hype tournaments == more streamed games == BEST.
Wow didnt expect this from you. Guess time can CHANGE everyone. I remember you allmost would ban hori if it had came out 1 month later or something. Eventhough hori is one of the biggest reasons players that dont grew up with a Nintendo 64 play this game. Good you turned into reason!

More players>everything else. 90 percent of the time.


inb4 yobo post about MK 200 percent items >=d

Doubleinb4 aa dont read my post but find a way to mock me.

trippelinb4 clubba likes what aa post regardles of its content.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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Messages
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hori's should be banned still... don't make a fool of yourself trying to make a fool of me PER USUAL. Also how do you not understand aa's posts about you?
 

Sedda

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Luigi sucks
I think this "D1" guy is referring specifically to collusion and you (Sedda) just massively misrepresented him.
I think you misinterpreted my post man.

I'm not talking solely about collusion. Unless you didn't read my post, you can clearly see that I mentioned the dumbass personal arguments and other things that happen all the time to them. This is just one example that I put out there to ask the more general question that I asked.
 

Olikus

Smash Champion
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hori's should be banned still... don't make a fool of yourself trying to make a fool of me PER USUAL. Also how do you not understand aa's posts about you?
Maybe I get carried away by all his 90scartoonlowersecretagentparaplegicalligatordescribing of me.
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
183
I come from a capcom game "background" and by that I mean that is the fighting game scene I've been following closely for quite some time. Don't know much about melee except what I learned in the recent smash doc. but these collusion talks seem to be spillover from recent discussions in the Capcom/FGC communities. This is something that I've discussed quite a bit so here's my summary of the issue.

I think the heart of the matter is that some people believe that players who benefit a lot from fighting games (players who have found success and a "career" playing games) should be held to a standard as high as professional athletes. This is because people in the community, those who work hard to organize events, have the footage of players ultimately as their product. If the grand finals of UberFightmaniaSaltfest IV is super compelling and gets people talking then that does amazing things for the profitability of the 5th installment of the tournament series. Players whether they like it or not are part of something bigger and need to be considerate towards those who enable them to be successful and have a career playing video games.

Now I'm fairly new to the 64 community but I am pretty sure that the above paragraph doesn't really apply to our community in any way. The 64 community top players aren't making careers based on their smash ability (I am pretty sure of this. There just aren't enough events). Money doesn't seem to be a motivating factor in the 64 scene.

The god of the game Isai is like one of those slacker greek gods who just goes down to earth and seduces farmgirls, mains link at apex and neglects his "divine duty" to constantly prove he is the best. And this is not a bad thing.

Its in fact one of the things I found most appealing about smash 64. Money can motivate people and take the play of a game to higher levels. It can legitimize the work people put into a game and possibly it can create the dream of all dreams, a stable life and career for those good enough at the game. But money leads to drama and crap and more crap and growing tensions all over the community.

Growth is a good thing (I'm new) because more players playing the game benefits everyone. But
looking at the number of events that have 64 as a game currently it is borderline comical to be worrying about issues like collusion and the refinement of the product that is a 64 stream/event. Long way to go before this is really an issue whatsoever.
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
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The god of the game Isai is like one of those slacker greek gods who just goes down to earth and seduces farmgirls, mains link at apex and neglects his "divine duty" to constantly prove he is the best.
 

Sedda

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Sangoku ban Yobo please. Oh no... =(


I was just trying to start a conversation, Yobo. Come on.
 

thegreginator

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
372
Can someone explain this collusion thing for those who aren't familiar with it? I don't get why anyone would decide to collude in this context.
 

Fireblaster

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Can someone explain this collusion thing for those who aren't familiar with it? I don't get why anyone would decide to collude in this context.

Winning grand finals nets you 70% and getting 2nd place is 20%. Agreeing to split the pot with your opponent in grand finals before the match happens means you both get a guaranteed 45% instead. This is collusion and basically not allowed in any fighting game tournament ever. A lot of players often do it but at least they put on a good show to hide it and basically no one cares if they really split or not because they played a great match. It's only when assholes do something like pick an obviously ****ty character or just do random select only that it becomes obvious and an insult to everyone else that's part of that tournament.
 

DMoogle

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It's only when *******s do something like pick an obviously ****ty character or just do random select only that it becomes obvious and an insult to everyone else that's part of that tournament.
Very ironic that people get so disappointed when they find out that a GF consists solely of Pika dittos.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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Pika dittos are suboptimal play obviously. As soon as your opponent goes pika you're supposed to counter with falcon. People are just mad at all of the collusion that is clearly causing the pika dittos.
 

Fireblaster

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Very ironic that people get so disappointed when they find out that a GF consists solely of Pika dittos.

That's not what irony is unless you think not picking pikachu is the equivalent of giving up and not trying to win.

In cases like Kero at rolling thunder or isai at any apex 2013, they each tried to win the tournament under a specific goal the entire event. Isai picked only mario and from what I was told kero tried to prove he could win without pikachu. It's not really collusion since it's not like either of them randomly went to a bottom tier during grand finals. They both had a goal from the beginning and set out to finish it by playing their hardest every match.

And don't overreact to this, Kero. Not destroying some noob you know can never beat you just to make them feel better is not what collusion is, even if it does happen on stream. M2K has been known to pick random non-mains like mewtwo in melee and play against weaker players like that. Audiences love that kind of stuff.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
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lol no offense to those guys but why would m2k ever split with them. That's losing guaranteed money pretty much. Can someone point me to the drama? I'm bored
 

Sangoku

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Kero I'm so going to sandbag at apex under my alt, then when we're both on the last stock at high %, I'll get you by surprise. Get sent to loser after the first well seeded game *****.
 
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