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When to roll and when to shield?

fps_trucka

Smash Rookie
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Oct 20, 2015
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14
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fpstrucka
Hi all,
I find myself constantly rolling which of course is a big no no. However, while trying to fix this issue I am not quite sure actually "when" to roll. I see a lot of people who don't use roll and all they do is pretty much shield + spot dodge. I would love to do this however, I fail miserably. Any advice that could help?
 

Duplighost

Smash Ace
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Feb 23, 2015
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Honestly, I rely more on Dash to Shield more than rolling. It gives me much more space and time to predict and opponent's movement but keep them distant.

I only roll when an opponent is coming straight toward me, and I know they are going to go for a dash attack or grab, so I roll behind them. Otherwise, rolling is okay, but if you spam it the opponent will figure out how to get you.

I advise practicing Dash to Shield. It is often much more effective than rolling.
 

Rinku リンク

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Empty short hops and even just running past your opponent can be great for mind games. You honestly only want to roll when you know you won't get punished for it.

I'd honestly try to get use to shielding and spot dodging. The more you do it the more natural it'll become a habit.
 

fps_trucka

Smash Rookie
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Oct 20, 2015
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fpstrucka
I'd honestly try to get use to shielding and spot dodging. The more you do it the more natural it'll become a habit.
I really want to but I find it so very hard knowing if I should shield or not. Spot dodging isn't terrible for me but its still hard to read when to do so or not.
 

Gimmick

Smash Ace
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Jun 16, 2015
Messages
646
You don't do either. You just go full on MLG and get in your opponents face. :denzel:
 

Rinku リンク

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I really want to but I find it so very hard knowing if I should shield or not. Spot dodging isn't terrible for me but its still hard to read when to do so or not.
When in doubt shielding is the best option. At worse you'll get grabbed but it's better than taking percent (just be aware of powerful attacks that may break your shield).

Honestly spamming spot dodge is a lot safer than spamming roll so don't be afraid to use it. Overall it's going to take time for you to understand what defensive options are best in different situations so just playing and practicing in general will help you get better at it.
 

VPTurnip

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Sep 3, 2015
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Turnip
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I practiced dodge/shield timing with Jigglypuff, a character in smash 4 that can't afford to take careless hits like a couple of my mains.
Also a big tip is to know what move your opponent is using that you're dodging. If you're familiar with the move, what the animation of the move looks like, and how that move works it'll be a lot easier to dodge it.
 

GooberGaming

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
130
I have a bit of a rolling habit as well.

What I'm doing to get out of it is by running instead of rolling, and running past my opponent a mind game that is very simple and very effective. I'm also just forcing myself to shield instead of rolling which has helped me understand the benefits of shielding.

Knowing when to shield roll, or spot dodge takes time to learn. For me, I only spotdodge when I am anticipating a grab. I hold shield whenever I feel that I can get a shield grab and I roll as a way to retreat from an approach OR to avoid grabs and shield breakers!'
 

Raijinken

Smash Master
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Rolling has its uses, for instance, spot dodging won't help if the opponent has a holdable first-jab (Ike, Mario, Kirby, the list goes on). On the other hand, if you roll past a dash attack, you may leave yourself in position to get punished (or to punish, just depending on the move and the timing).

As a reflexive defensive maneuver, it's weak. Really, each option has a counter when it's used at the wrong time.

Shield too early -> Get grabbed
Roll early -> Get punished
Spot dodge a multi-hit -> Get hit anyway
Shield a strong move or move with high shield damage -> Risk shield-break
Jump (or worse, mash jump) to avoid move -> Get hit and lose second jump
Airdodge early -> landing lag punish or endlag punish, depending on position.

So really, it's not a matter of trying to never roll, or avoiding any given option. It's a matter of learning when to use which. Reads aside (which you just have to learn to play mentally, against your specific opponent), generally the closer to perfect your timing is, the safer you'll be shielding or rolling or spot-dodging or anything. Timing will depend on the enemy's move, and the player's skill.
 

VPTurnip

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What I'm doing to get out of it is by running instead of rolling, and running past my opponent a mind game that is very simple and very effective.
That's effective with Greninja? (no pun intended) Wouldn't of thought that. Huh, what kinds of moves can he punish with after running past? Or do you wait for another opportunity for that, and just use it as a mind game?

I usually spotdodge or jump much more than I roll. You wouldn't think it, but those can become bad habits as well, as Raijinken Raijinken pointed out. His list is pretty helpful advice, honestly.
 
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Bee86

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As a general rule, I try to only roll when juggling opponents for combos or to dodge incoming attacks. Spot dodging is a safer option when your opponent is in your face, because it gives you more potential for punishment once your invincibility frames are done.
As for shielding, I tend to dash into shield mostly just to block weaker attacks such as specials and jabs, but try to avoid shielding aerials and smash attacks.
 

GooberGaming

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 11, 2015
Messages
130
That's effective with Greninja? (no pun intended) Wouldn't of thought that. Huh, what kinds of moves can he punish with after running past? Or do you wait for another opportunity for that, and just use it as a mind game?

I usually spotdodge or jump much more than I roll. You wouldn't think it, but those can become bad habits as well, as Raijinken Raijinken pointed out. His list is pretty helpful advice, honestly.
Running past your opponent is more of a mind game, similar to Fox trotting.

I find that :4greninja:'s speed makes this strategy really effective, because most players on For Glory expect a dash grab, so you can juke a spot dodge OR you can use it as a means of testing what kind of reaction your opponent will do so that you can start to find patterns in his/her gameplay.
 

FuzzyQuills

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
250
Hi all,
I find myself constantly rolling which of course is a big no no. However, while trying to fix this issue I am not quite sure actually "when" to roll. I see a lot of people who don't use roll and all they do is pretty much shield + spot dodge. I would love to do this however, I fail miserably. Any advice that could help?
Quite frankly, just get used to doing it right, and it becomes instinct. Using a fast character helps too. (Well, using a fast character helps with me anyway, as they're most responsive to my input)

I actually realised my skill with shielding by watching (guess what?) Smash King; some of the fight scenes there give a good example of basic shielding techniques.

Using a different button config that fits you can help too. I ended up having to change the 3DS dodge button to the Y button (because... the R-button did it's usual stuff-up... :grin:) and after getting used to it, I actually play better with that button. :) Having an alternate set of buttons (such as dodge on Y button as well as R, have a second grab button, etc.) helps too, in situations where your fingers for some reason can't reach the right one... ;)
 
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Quarium

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 30, 2015
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430
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Paraguay
You should watch ZeRo's matches as Sheik, he seems to do a lot of strategic rolling coupled with Dash to shield on very specific moments, it's hard to explain at what moments he does or what options is he covering/taking but you'll get it if you see it.
 

Duck SMASH!

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Jan 5, 2015
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418
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Ontario, Canada
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C.Piglet
Raijinken Raijinken mentions a very important point: the timing of your defensive maneuver is everything. Do it too early and you will be read and punished by something else. Do it too late and you eat whatever you were trying to evade.
A lot of this comes down to fear. Fear of missing the punishment window and the fear of uncertainty of when exactly you need to put up your shield or dodge.
So you roll to remove yourself from the situation. However, in rolling before you needed to, you choose an easy to do, yet high risk and only moderate reward option. You often cannot punish from wherever you rolled to, and you risk being baited and punished if you roll too much.

On the topic of defensive maneuvers, perfect shielding (shielding an attack in the first 3 frames of your shield being active) is extremely important if you want a punish of your own, especially because of the modified shield stun mechanics making stuff safer on regular shield in general.
If you can master perfect shielding on regular attacks, and not just projectiles, you will have many more options and become able to punish many more things that you could not through any other means.
One more option is to use an attack of your own to either cancel out your opponents' attack or hit them first. Sometimes, the best defense is a strong offense. Throwing out a disjointed attack should do the trick in at least clanking with your opponents' attack. At best, it will hit them first.
For example, Lucina's jab or Ftilt can easily stuff dash attacks of characters like Mario or Kirby. If you use a much stronger attack, like her Fsmash or something with transcendent priority like her side B, it will be even more effective (But oftentimes if you miss with these stronger attacks you'll get punished hard in turn).
You can also jab projectiles like Luigi's fireball or Diddy's banana.
Don't underestimate the effectiveness of your own attacks in stopping your opponents'.

Also, an important thing to do is look up the frame data of characters that you are fighting. Understand when the hitboxes come out. Understand how long they last, and when it becomes safe to drop your shield and punish.
Go to training mode and slow the game down to half speed or 2/3 or something. Do your best to hold off on shielding/spot dodging until the very last second and get that perfect shield or perfectly timed spot dodge and punish. Or, experiment with the timing of your attacks to see what you can use to punish your opponents' attacks and hit them through their own.
Once you get more comfy with how all the attacks and stuff work at a slower speed, reset the speed to normal and do it all again.

I guarantee you will improve your defensive game and your punish game immensely if you can quell your fear of getting hit and master the timing of perfect shielding to get optimal punishes.
And you'll ditch your bad roll habit.
 
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