WHATTTTTTTTTTTT?!!!!!

[Viceversa96]

-Down B invincibility removed
I thought you guys weren't touching Fox or Falco.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Still the fastest attack in the game, with amazing combo potential. Doesnt really make much of a difference if you ask me.

 

[lukifer]

SAY WHAT?!?!? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2il8JSUcfm0 (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Seriously though, I didn't even know that shines had invincibility until I read the change log. Seems like a programming error to me, or something that they weren't able to change earlier due to technical limitations. Is this how they work in Melee?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

SAY WHAT?!?!? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2il8JSUcfm0 (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Seriously though, I didn't even know that shines had invincibility until I read the change log. Seems like a programming error to me, or something that they weren't able to change earlier due to technical limitations. Is this how they work in Melee?

The shines had it in Melee, but the point here is to design them intelligently which is clearly not how they were designed in Melee, when compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Viceversa96]

Still the fastest attack in the game, with amazing combo potential. Doesnt really make much of a difference if you ask me.

The invincibility makes a huge difference. Plus that's not the point. They said they would respect Fox and Falco and leave them alone. Taking off that is going to piss off a lot of veterans. The invincibility is what made it so good for going through and gimping recoveries like Marth's. Seriously guys I thought the point of the mod was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways).

 

[CyberZixx]

Do we really need another thread going over this? Fox and Falco are still the best in the game. They dominate neutral and have fantastic normals. This small change does not change that. Spacies just have to time there shines better. Which is a good thing.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

The invincibility makes a huge difference. Plus that's not the point. They said they would respect Fox and Falco and leave them alone. Taking off that is going to piss off a lot of veterans. The invincibility is what made it so good for going through and gimping recoveries like Marth's. Seriously guys I thought the point of the mod was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways).

That's not possible to do without making everyone like 2.5 Sonic, 2.1 Ike or Lucario and ruining the game. The point of this mod is to make a worthy successor to Melee because Brawl, while alright, certainly was not that.

Fox and Falco are not, nor should they be untouchable. This is a new game, and as a new game things change. Melee players will need to adjust, much like Street Fighter II players needed to adjust to Street Fighter III.

 

[Strong Badam]

The invincibility makes a huge difference. Plus that's not the point. They said they would respect Fox and Falco and leave them alone. Taking off that is going to piss off a lot of veterans. The invincibility is what made it so good for going through and gimping recoveries like Marth's. Seriously guys I thought the point of the mod was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways).

Our motto for the past 4 years has been "Everything is subject to change." If smaller changes to Melee's Top Tier is determined to improve the overall balance and experience of Project M, we will do so. See: Sheik.

 

[Nemiak temp]

I mean, It hurts foxes gimping potential a lot because a lot of recoveries will just beat out his shine. But overall it was definitely a change for the better. Landing with shines to just jump right back up no longer safe, RIP tech skill spamming.

 

[Rarik]

So you're telling me that you can consistently time/space shine well enough that you only get hit by their recovery on the exact frame you down-b and that you weren't hit during any other frame before that (or after if you don't hit their hurtbox) when trying to hit with a move that only barely covers Fox's Vertical Hurtbox. Yeah. Totally.

http://www.gifexploder.com/mediastore/exploder/fox_lol_0.gif

His gimping potential was barely touched. Maybe 1/1000 cases will be affected by the change, and I think that even 1/1000 is way overestimating.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Alright shots fired god damn calm the **** down I'm not the one saying that removing invincibility was the stupidest decision ever to be made. But it does hurt his gimping potential a little. Probably more than on in every thousand occurrences come on. He'll still get the gimp usually but can trade hits with the up-b now which sometimes hurts a lot. Again I fully support the removal of invincibility, now you have to be able to do more than just tech skill with fox because his best tool is slightly less safe. Idk. Time will tell. Previously there wasn't a counter for shine. We might start seeing some now that a decent amount of moves can beat it out.

 

[Rarik]

Not quite sure you realize how absurd you're being. The 1 frame invincibility on shine is incredibly situational and in all cases requires you to be frame perfect responding to the exact frame they started the move. For shine's invincibility to be useful it has to prevent you from getting hit, and most moves have a hitbox that last longer than 1 frame. Which means that the move you would've been hit by has to only be touching your hurtbox for exactly 1 frame. Now, since most moves have a hitbox that lasts longer than 1 frame the times that the invincibility comes into effect is restricted to moves that do only last 1 frame or the first frame that the hitbox would hit you WHILE the shine hitbox is hitting their hurtbox. Now, I'm not gonna do a ton of frame analysis to find a bunch of moves that this can happen on, but in general if you're spacing properly the 2nd situation should rarely if ever occur especially considering that multiple frame perfect things are occurring.

Basically I think you're way overvaluing that 1 frame invincibility. 1/1000 is definitely unrealistic. It's way too high of a chance.

Late Edit: I realized I forgot to include moves that move quickly enough that they only cover your hitbox for 1 frame (so same situation as 1 frame moves) and the last frame of a move (same situation as 1 frame moves)

 

[foxygrandpa]

The invincibility makes a huge difference. Plus that's not the point. They said they would respect Fox and Falco and leave them alone. Taking off that is going to piss off a lot of veterans. The invincibility is what made it so good for going through and gimping recoveries like Marth's. Seriously guys I thought the point of the mod was to make everyone as good as Fox (or try anyways).

I play fox in melee too, and Im also kinda disappointed that they nerfed them but this specific change makes no huge difference. If anything else like his usmash or recovery was nerfed, then this would be more of a let down. The only really annoying thing that happened to me playing this version so far is that when wolf and fox shine at the same time, they both flinch. Thats pretty circumstantial though. Im not totally disagreeing with you, and I wish they hadnt done it, but I honestly dont think it makes a huge difference. It might even be interesting to see how much this changes fox's game.

 

[Nemiak temp]

When are they gonna make fox not easy mode though? It seems like you barely have to time anything right in PM and it just WORKS. Voila button mash successful.

 

[Viceversa96]

So you're telling me that you can consistently time/space shine well enough that you only get hit by their recovery on the exact frame you down-b and that you weren't hit during any other frame before that (or after if you don't hit their hurtbox) when trying to hit with a move that only barely covers Fox's Vertical Hurtbox. Yeah. Totally.

http://www.gifexploder.com/mediastore/exploder/fox_lol_0.gif

His gimping potential was barely touched. Maybe 1/1000 cases will be affected by the change, and I think that even 1/1000 is way overestimating.

Yes. Yes I can. So can Mango and other top Melee players

 

[Rarik]

Got any videos that I can go through frame by frame as proof? I honestly have a hard time believing that the single invincibility frame is actually abusable and if people truly can abuse it I'd like to see it.

 

[Strong Badam]

As stated in the other thread, the lack of invincibility will never actually prevent you from shinespiking someone you otherwise would have. You will simply trade with their recovery move instead of outright beating it. This is fact, if you are missing, it is due to your own incompetencies as a player, not the 2.6 changes.

 

[Rarik]

Yes. Yes I can. So can Mango and other top Melee players

Still would like some sort of proof for that claim, like all I want is a video where someone (don't care who) actually does what I described and I'll do the work of going frame by frame to double check. Multiple videos would be awesome but I'll accept just one.

 

[Viceversa96]

As stated in the other thread, the lack of invincibility will never actually prevent you from shinespiking someone you otherwise would have. You will simply trade with their recovery move instead of outright beating it. This is fact, if you are missing, it is due to your own incompetencies as a player, not the 2.6 changes.

Can you close/delete my this redundant thread?

 

[Shadic]

Yes, I will.