What tournament rules would you change?

[Plunder]

There are 3 rules that really grind my gears.

1) Why is wobbling almost always allowed up to 299% before it's deemed as stalling?
- 200% is more than enough or a guaranteed kill, it's very boring to watch in the first place. allowing such a high percents is even more of a hype killer.

2) Pokemon Stadium should not be legal
- If it didn't transform it'd be fine, but it does. The windmill sucks, the Rock stage people stand there and don't approach (yay!). All transforms have glitched lips; the rock and fire stages also have infinites for some characters, death traps, walls of life, blind spots, etc

What else makes it suspicious is that it's flat out illegal in PM and it's the ONLY counter-pick stage (giving some credibility to it heavily favoring characters.)

3) Why in the world is the time limit still 8 minutes? Most matches take 3-4 minutes at the most and if they are boring floaty camping matches they take 6 (in some annoying and excruciating cases they go all the way to 8).

- I think the time limit should be changed to 6 minutes (or maybe even 5). In contrast to other fighting games end time is rarely ever approached, meaning we are given too much time (actually too much space as well) and that allows for matches to get boring and encourages camping.

 

[Corey]

While pokemon stadium is annoying at times, people seem to like it just for that reason; it being silly as hell. It gives a stage to counterpick your opponent with that is alot more dynamic and stupid to play on. I'm not sure if I would want it to be banned or not, but since its still in the stage list to this day shows that at least some people like it. I do like the no transformation version on 20XX tho.

I'm not sure about the wobbling thing, but I have two thing to say about it:
1. I dont like wobbling to begin with, so I personally never was bothered by the stalling limit since I hate it anyway lol
2. I dont thing I've ever seen anyone go anywhere near the 300% when wobbling, so its seems like the 300% rule just makes sure nobody can troll with people too hard

I don't know what else to say about the 8 minute time limit im sick of typing. But it seems like a well placed time limit. ( i hate floaty camping tho trust me i feel you)

 

[EPsilon933]

I'd make the rules simpler to help make the game easier to understand. Smash rules are novels to write. In other competitive games, their rules are pretty much only the default rules[/exaggeration]. COD has a few extra rules and Halo's MLG rule sets have a lot of changes. Some are as small as changing the running speed from 100% to 110%

Stage 1 should always be Battlefield. The stage striking system is complicated and sometimes you might face against a new player who has no idea how it works. Battlefield is mostly commonly thought of as the most balanced stage so it's the best choice

I'd also get rid of banning stages when a player wins a game. It prevents combinations of character/character/stage from being played in a best of 3 set which is part of the game

Maybe these rule adjustments would be good at an event where there's a high probability of casuals/novices showing up, but the rules as they are right now are pretty good

 

[Dolla Pills]

I like Stadium because it offers variety to the stage list, removing it means we only have 5 legal stages which I'm not a fan of. Furthermore it's not as polarizing as some people would suggest. It's actually commonly a counterpick for Marth against spacies, and we have seen characters like Sheik and Peach and Puff do perfectly fine on Stadium against Fox recently. Sure the fire and rock stages can get campy, but that's not a reason to ban 1/6 of the legal stages.

I don't have much to say about wobbling, it doesn't really make a difference whether 200% or 300% because typically people don't even go to 200, so I'd say just leave it. There's nothing wrong with it in my opinion.

Changing the time limit is a pretty bad idea. Yes, fast caller match ups are more entertaining to watch and they go by pretty quickly. But that's not all Melee is. Five to six minutes is inappropriate in many match ups and we can't just ignore them because you don't like watching them. Camping is part of the game, and it's not like we have Temple level and players literally just run away for the entire match and nothing happens.

 

[EPsilon933]

In traditional fighting games, time running out can get pretty hype sometimes because running away isn't very feasible. Walking/dashing forward is probably always equal or faster than walking/dashing backwards. Aerial movement is also more restricted than in Smash. Escape options are limited, so if someone wants to win by time out, they're going to have to handle their opponent's approach options. Smash games have too much freedom of movement (escape options) for there to be as much hype. If the winning players has fast mobility and the losing player doesn't, it can turn into a hopeless game of tag

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I'd say wobbling for more than 50% should be illegal, and turn off PKS transformations to make it more legal, other than that, I don't see many other problems, though 6 minute time limit would work pretty well.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I think that the current rules allow for utterly fair competition.
The real compliant I'm hearing is for more interesting or fun competition.

There are plenty of things that can make the game more interesting, more hype *cough everyone plays falcon cough* or just more fun for the viewers. These suggestions are by no means rules for the greater good, just things that I personally think would be cool to see.

• Always best 3 of 5 with shorter timing (5 minutes)
• You must use a secondary character at least once (force people out of playing fox 24/7) in the set
• More creative stage counter picks - While I think Pokemon stadium is a horrible stage for fair battle, it is a fun stage. I thought Rainbow Cruise doubles was fun too, just not necessarily fair

These are all I can think of right now, but I hope you can understand my perspective.

 

[pagedMov]

imo none of the rules really need to be changed.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Unban Pokefloats

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Wobbling being allowed till 299 is due to pokemon stadium. It means the ics get to wobblestall a transformation to ensure said wobble will kill. Would argue that forcing it till an earlier percentage would be fair game but then you get to have some weird exception to the rule or ics complaining about someone living on stadium somewhere.

Pokemon stadium is only illegal in pm cause pm has another pokemon stadium without the downsides of the normal stadium. I will admit being forced to camp out a transformation is lame because said transformations are just camped out they barely matter and outside of that the stadium layout is pretty good. If stadium gets banned other players will prolly complain about fd for having very very very polarizing matchups an overall simplified neutral game and generally speaking easy 0 to death flowcharts. It is just something that is in the game and we as a community have decided for a less balanced stagelist over everything to battlefield

The timelimit is something I personally kinda agree with a bit though someone else came with the idea that if timeouts become a viable strategy people will more likely go for it. Which in turn means you might for example get floaties vs spaceys lasting 6 minutes as opposed to 4~5 all of a sudden.

Additionally rulesets that have been in place for quite a few years now are not likely to be changed by someone who joined the medium to suggest said change roughly 1 1/2 week ago.

 

[Plunder]

Additionally rulesets that have been in place for quite a few years now are not likely to be changed by someone who joined the medium to suggest said change roughly 1 1/2 week ago.

This last comment is so cringe-worthy, you can't possibly be that dense. When did I say I expect these rules to change just because I gave my opinion. I'm just asking what other people might change if they could.

 

[dahuterschuter]

3) Why in the world is the time limit still 8 minutes? Most matches take 3-4 minutes at the most and if they are boring floaty camping matches they take 6 (in some annoying and excruciating cases they go all the way to 8).

- I think the time limit should be changed to 6 minutes (or maybe even 5). In contrast to other fighting games end time is rarely ever approached, meaning we are given too much time (actually too much space as well) and that allows for matches to get boring and encourages camping.

The longer time limit doesn't really encourage camping since technically camping would be a more viable strategy with less time since you have to maintain your defense for less time. If you have a one minute match and one person just gets the first hit then retreat to ledge-stalling its much easier to do that for one minute than eight and it also gives the opponent less time to figure out how to deal with it.

Also we pretty much saw why the longer time is useful at EVO in Armada/Hbox's first match where Armada took the time to methodically pick apart the camping strategy which wouldn't have been possible to do with less time. If most matches last 3-4 minutes then there's no harm in having the eight minutes and it's actually useful in some cases.

Besides, I loved Armada and Hbox's old thirty minute Puff/Young Link sets.

Also legalize Pokefloats.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'd make the rules simpler to help make the game easier to understand. Smash rules are novels to write. In other competitive games, their rules are pretty much only the default rules[/exaggeration]. COD has a few extra rules and Halo's MLG rule sets have a lot of changes. Some are as small as changing the running speed from 100% to 110%

Smash has all of these small things I feel that need to be addressed when it happens.

You can very easily sum up melee as this.

Set-up: Default settings except: 4 stock, 8 minute, no items.
Stages: YI, FoD, BF, FD, DL start. PS Counter.
Order: Strike 1/2/1. Winner gets ban. Loser picks stage.

This sums up most every match a person ever has. I rarely ever have to do the situation of I counterpick, they switch, then I get to switch character. Or what matters when you go to time. What are the pausing rules. Is wobbling banned or not banned.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

This last comment is so cringe-worthy, you can't possibly be that dense. When did I say I expect these rules to change just because I gave my opinion. I'm just asking what other people might change if they could.

You were voicing your opinions strongly enough to imply you were trying to get them as actual new rules. (And a lot of people actually do so too) so I felt like stating it regardless

 

[Plunder]

The longer time limit doesn't really encourage camping since technically camping would be a more viable strategy with less time since you have to maintain your defense for less time. If you have a one minute match and one person just gets the first hit then retreat to ledge-stalling its much easier to do that for one minute than eight and it also gives the opponent less time to figure out how to deal with it.

Also we pretty much saw why the longer time is useful at EVO in Armada/Hbox's first match where Armada took the time to methodically pick apart the camping strategy which wouldn't have been possible to do with less time. If most matches last 3-4 minutes then there's no harm in having the eight minutes and it's actually useful in some cases.

Besides, I loved Armada and Hbox's old thirty minute Puff/Young Link sets.

Also legalize Pokefloats.

You could also argue the complete opposite very easily.

Those are also terrible examples. 8 minutes to 1 minute? (never suggested that, apples & oranges comparison)
3-4 minutes? (never suggested that)

I said 6 minutes would be a good time limit, it's not really that extreme and some people in here seem to agree.

You might like watching Hbox regrab the ledge 100 times, but to new viewer who might become a fan of Melee and help our community grow? They see that and might be turned off to never come back, the crowd was booing, the chat was booing, this gave people more reason to easily hate on Melee.

I can understand if you want to play the contrarian, but really what defines Melee is it's aggressiveness and speed. The hype created by two top players like DruggedFox and Leffen just tearing each other apart and not camping or ledge stalling. People cheering and chanting "oohing" and "ahhhing" screaming after an intense combo or read (usually FFer vs FFer, or FFer vs Floaty). There's nothing wrong with floaty vs floaty matches, but they are inherently FAR FAR less hype though. And the time limit does encourage camping and for players to take their time and play in a more defensive "Brawl" style where they just poke and run away. They are only hype when you get a player like Mango or Armada (Genesis 1 & 2 ), both are very aggressive and basically play like there is only 5 minutes on the clock.

 

[Dandy_here]

I like the rules we have now, there aren't any problems with it.

 

[Comet7]

if you lower the time like that, then several matchups won't have the time to finish and people will camp more because it will be more feasible. this has been proved with smash 4, and i don't see why melee would be different.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

if you lower the time like that, then several matchups won't have the time to finish and people will camp more because it will be more feasible. this has been proved with smash 4, and i don't see why melee would be different.

Sm4sh 8 minutes matches don't time out?

 

[Comet7]

Sm4sh 8 minutes matches don't time out?

this was discussed with the 5 minutes vs 6 minutes with 2 stocks. sm4sh is pretty slow regardless, but matches with 6 minute timers took less time than those with 5 minute timers on average.

 

[Plunder]

if you lower the time like that, then several matchups won't have the time to finish and people will camp more because it will be more feasible. this has been proved with smash 4, and i don't see why melee would be different.

So basically you think Sm4sh and Melee are very similar games? That it's fair to compare them directly and predict how time would change both exactly the same.

Is Melee the same as Brawl too?

In that case why do we have 4 stocks for Melee still, we should just reduce it to 2 since Melee is so similar to Brawl and Sm4sh.

Like I said this argument is heavily biased, it goes both ways. It's not just "less time = more camp", that's like saying if you reduce Street fighter rounds from 99 seconds to 70 seconds everyone's gonna camp and turtle.

6 minutes is more than enough time (very rare does a match exceed that), and time outs are not a bad thing they can actually bring the hype when the time is reasonable enough. Look at almost ANY OTHER FIGHTING GAME, timeouts happen frequently and they can be nail-bitters and intense. It helps keep the momentum going and allows more sets to be streamed/played.

 

[Comet7]

So basically you think Sm4sh and Melee are very similar games? That it's fair to compare them directly and predict how time would change both exactly the same.

Is Melee the same as Brawl too?

In that case why do we have 4 stocks for Melee still, we should just reduce it to 2 since Melee is so similar to Brawl and Sm4sh.

Like I said this argument is heavily biased, it goes both ways. It's not just "less time = more camp", that's like saying if you reduce Street fighter rounds from 99 seconds to 70 seconds everyone's gonna camp and turtle.

6 minutes is more than enough time (very rare does a match exceed that), and time outs are not a bad thing they can actually bring the hype when the time is reasonable enough. Look at almost ANY OTHER FIGHTING GAME, timeouts happen frequently and they can be nail-bitters and intense. It helps keep the momentum going and allows more sets to be streamed/played.

no, i think the mentality is similar. don't put words in my mouth. i would not suggest something stupid like you said. if you lower the time for matches like fox vs puff that can easily take a few minutes but don't time out, time outs will become a more viable strategy. the current ruleset makes the timeout strategy weak since there's so much time in relation to stocks. imagine hungrybox vs armada with lowered time, both were already camping each other a bit, playing "lame," blah blah blah. if either noticed the clock coming down to only a minute, then that person could probably stall enough for a timeout victory.

do you seriously think fox shooting lasers and jigglypuff grabbing the ledge is hype?

 

[Dolla Pills]

So basically you think Sm4sh and Melee are very similar games? That it's fair to compare them directly and predict how time would change both exactly the same.

Is Melee the same as Brawl too?

In that case why do we have 4 stocks for Melee still, we should just reduce it to 2 since Melee is so similar to Brawl and Sm4sh.

Like I said this argument is heavily biased, it goes both ways. It's not just "less time = more camp", that's like saying if you reduce Street fighter rounds from 99 seconds to 70 seconds everyone's gonna camp and turtle.

6 minutes is more than enough time (very rare does a match exceed that), and time outs are not a bad thing they can actually bring the hype when the time is reasonable enough. Look at almost ANY OTHER FIGHTING GAME, timeouts happen frequently and they can be nail-bitters and intense. It helps keep the momentum going and allows more sets to be streamed/played.

Lol apparently comparing Melee timeouts to Smash 4 time outs is absolutely ridiculous but comparing Melee time outs to other fighting game timeouts makes perfect sense.

 

[Plunder]

Lol apparently comparing Melee timeouts to Smash 4 time outs is absolutely ridiculous but comparing Melee time outs to other fighting game timeouts makes perfect sense.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.

In fact it's the opposite of what you seemed to have misunderstood. I say that you can't predict or state that "less time will always = more camping" as Comet and that other guy were saying. Acting as if the complete opposite isn't also likely or that it wouldn't really change anything.

I state that all three are likely, but the fact that every other game commonly has time outs and it's not seen as a negative at all by pretty much everyone else in the FGC is relevant. Categorically assuming you know that time outs will be forced, and more camping will happen, and more defensive play styles will emerge just because of a 2 minute reduction is silly. The only reason timeouts are viewed as a negative in the smash community is based on the fact that it's just too much time to start with, so a large majority of people disapprove it ever getting to that point...Sm4sh and Brawl obviously lend themselves to more defensive play so to compare them to Melee makes no sense to me.

8 minute boring time outs and really defensive hit and run "Brawl" style matches are a large reason why we lose spectators and why other Fighting Game Spectators and players don't like Melee or support it.

I think I've exhausted all I can say on that bullet point. If you guys want you can keep arguing about it, but I probably won't come back here unless I see others contribute something interesting or original that replies to the actual original question. I never really asked for my initial 3 rule change opinions to be criticized since, you know....they're my opinions and I don't really care if others agree. I was interested to see if anyone had things they would change themselves.

 

[CptJPuff]

legalize Poke Floats

 

[dahuterschuter]

You could also argue the complete opposite very easily.

And yet, you don't for some reason...

Those are also terrible examples. 8 minutes to 1 minute? (never suggested that, apples & oranges comparison)
3-4 minutes? (never suggested that)

I said 6 minutes would be a good time limit, it's not really that extreme and some people in here seem to agree.

Would it be enough time to shut down the stalling tactics you yourself are so against? Or would it just make them more viable?

You might like watching Hbox regrab the ledge 100 times, but to new viewer who might become a fan of Melee and help our community grow? They see that and might be turned off to never come back, the crowd was booing, the chat was booing, this gave people more reason to easily hate on Melee.

The people booing were hating on Hungrybox.

And the time limit does encourage camping and for players to take their time and play in a more defensive "Brawl" style where they just poke and run away.

Yes, a shorter time limit would, since the shorter the time, the more viable the strategy of defense and camping that you hate so much.

They are only hype when you get a player like Mango or Armada (Genesis 1 & 2 ), both are very aggressive and basically play like there is only 5 minutes on the clock.

Which was literally every match at EVO other than Hbox's up till grand finals when he realized his camping strat wasn't going to work against Armada anymore and just had to go in.

You're essentially arguing to eliminate something that happens in less than 1% of matches and the method you're proposing doesn't even ameliorate the "problem," it actually makes it worse.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Bring back Rainbow Cruise!!

 

[Plunder]

Bring back Rainbow Cruise!!

Kirby Up-Throw ceiling kills FTW.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.

Did you read what the other guy wrote? Because he just referenced experimentation in smash 4 that very well could be relevant to Melee. There's no reason to disregard that reference and it's hypocritical to include your reference (which you did because you think it's relevant, but others may not). Personally I don't agree with your point but I don't really care to argue, just please don't trash someone for doing something and then proceed to do the exact same thing.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

My favorite stage is corneria. I play it in friendlies all the time. Kind of wish it was counterpick legal, but I guess that wall is just 2 good for spacies.

 

[Plunder]

My favorite stage is corneria. I play it in friendlies all the time. Kind of wish it was counterpick legal, but I guess that wall is just 2 good for spacies.

Corneria is definitely a favorite of mine as well, I've also always really loved StarFox music.

I think my crazy stage pick would be Mute City, it's such an exciting dynamic stage. I really miss seeing matches on that stage....it favors floaties and has no ledges though :/

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Corneria is definitely a favorite of mine as well, I've also always really loved StarFox music.

I think my crazy stage pick would be Mute City, it's such an exciting dynamic stage. I really miss seeing matches on that stage....it favors floaties and has no ledges though :/

lmao yeah. Play against a peach on mute city and you'll begin to hate it hard. Although it's a very agro stage and I've seen falcons beat skilled peach players on it, back in the day.

At least we still got pokemon stadium, so many people hate that stage but I like it

 

[Uchihadark7]

Well if I could change tournament rules, I would definitely add more counter pick stages like Mushroom Kingdom II, Kongo Jungle 64, Kongo Jungle, and I would add all the old counter pick stages like Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Archelon]

I'd say wobbling for more than 50% should be illegal, and turn off PKS transformations to make it more legal, other than that, I don't see many other problems, though 6 minute time limit would work pretty well.

Aren't ICs bad enough? I feel like it's easy enough to avoid a grab for wobbling to be considered "over powered".

 

[Archelon]

I'd make the rules simpler to help make the game easier to understand. Smash rules are novels to write. In other competitive games, their rules are pretty much only the default rules[/exaggeration]. COD has a few extra rules and Halo's MLG rule sets have a lot of changes. Some are as small as changing the running speed from 100% to 110%

Stage 1 should always be Battlefield. The stage striking system is complicated and sometimes you might face against a new player who has no idea how it works. Battlefield is mostly commonly thought of as the most balanced stage so it's the best choice

I'd also get rid of banning stages when a player wins a game. It prevents combinations of character/character/stage from being played in a best of 3 set which is part of the game

Maybe these rule adjustments would be good at an event where there's a high probability of casuals/novices showing up, but the rules as they are right now are pretty good

Both players can agree to start on BF, and if one doesn't want to... well that means you should strike to pick the most even stage.

 

[Archelon]

I think that the current rules allow for utterly fair competition.
The real compliant I'm hearing is for more interesting or fun competition.

There are plenty of things that can make the game more interesting, more hype *cough everyone plays falcon cough* or just more fun for the viewers. These suggestions are by no means rules for the greater good, just things that I personally think would be cool to see.

• Always best 3 of 5 with shorter timing (5 minutes)
• You must use a secondary character at least once (force people out of playing fox 24/7) in the set
• More creative stage counter picks - While I think Pokemon stadium is a horrible stage for fair battle, it is a fun stage. I thought Rainbow Cruise doubles was fun too, just not necessarily fair

These are all I can think of right now, but I hope you can understand my perspective.

On the contrary, I think that maining a single character lets viewers see a higher level of play, with all of somebody's attention focused on one character.

 

[Uchihadark7]

Aren't ICs bad enough? I feel like it's easy enough to avoid a grab for wobbling to be considered "over powered".

Yeah you kind of have a point. That's like banning falcon punch because it's easy to avoid in most situations.

 

[Archelon]

You could also argue the complete opposite very easily.

Those are also terrible examples. 8 minutes to 1 minute? (never suggested that, apples & oranges comparison)
3-4 minutes? (never suggested that)

I said 6 minutes would be a good time limit, it's not really that extreme and some people in here seem to agree.

You might like watching Hbox regrab the ledge 100 times, but to new viewer who might become a fan of Melee and help our community grow? They see that and might be turned off to never come back, the crowd was booing, the chat was booing, this gave people more reason to easily hate on Melee.

I can understand if you want to play the contrarian, but really what defines Melee is it's aggressiveness and speed. The hype created by two top players like DruggedFox and Leffen just tearing each other apart and not camping or ledge stalling. People cheering and chanting "oohing" and "ahhhing" screaming after an intense combo or read (usually FFer vs FFer, or FFer vs Floaty). There's nothing wrong with floaty vs floaty matches, but they are inherently FAR FAR less hype though. And the time limit does encourage camping and for players to take their time and play in a more defensive "Brawl" style where they just poke and run away. They are only hype when you get a player like Mango or Armada (Genesis 1 & 2 ), both are very aggressive and basically play like there is only 5 minutes on the clock.

Lol how come everyone always hates on HBox for countercamping?
Anyways, the example with the 1 minute thing was most likely just an exageration to help you understand it, his point actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Archelon]

Yeah you kind of have a point. That's like banning falcon punch because it's easy to avoid in most situations.

Or banning allall 0-deaths outright lol (Okay, admittedly this is an exageration as they can be harder to pull because you have to react to DI and stuff, but at least they're easier to initiate).