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What to learn as Snake?

Perversion

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I'm very much enjoying Snake coming off of playing both Bowser and Lucario heavily in Smash 4 (my first competitive Smash game). I am not used to playing a set up oriented character though, and while I'm trying to adjust, I am interested on what proven Snake players have found and incorporate it into my own play. I am slowly getting used to grenade zoning, and proper C4 placement, and utilizing Nikita for ledge guarding. I have noticed that I have a preference for utilts, uair, bair, fair, and ftilts to kill as well as some of the smash attacks. Anyways, thank you in advance for the advice that is to be shared to me and any other new players looking to main the Legendary Mercenary. If it helps, I'm also considering potentially maining Wolf, Bowser, Lucario, Inkling, and K. Rool for comparison.
 

DavemanCozy

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Tech chase with dash attack. The move has intangibility at the front, it is pretty fast and covers a long distance, and has a fairly long hitbox.
 

Perversion

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I have noticed that Dash Attack for Snake is very strong. Didn't realize it was intangible in the front, which is awesome.
 

DavemanCozy

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I should probably also mention that Snake relies a lot on controlling the stage with his explosives. His up smash, neutral special, down special and side special can all create a landmine for the opponent to step on while rockets simultaneously rain down.

Grenades come out frame 1 as well, so if you get stuck in something gross like a Luigi combo, DI away and get a grenade out asap. They explode when attacked, it will likely damage you as well but it's better than being combo food.
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Grenades are your beat friend. Learning how to maneuver them around your opponent to make them fill trapped is essential. Throwing (Hold B + -> + Release B) one and dropping (Shielding with Grenade in hand) is a very good starter for this. This allows you to put pressure on them with the throw and limit their approach with the drop.

Learning when and how to sticky C4 is also a big deal. This game has the balloon launch mechanic so it's rather hard to sticky out of just any attack. Your best bet is to sticky out of a grenade explosion, a throw, or a meteor bounce. This sticky CAN transfer back to you after a set amount of time which means touching someone stickied will sticky you if it's been so long. Sticky to U-Throw, or U-Tilt, then detonation is a very easy, very good kill technique that once mastered can be devastating.

Also, use short hop N-Air. It's really good in this game. All 4 hits can come out during the short hop which makes it great as a pressure or escape tool.

And that's the basics. Tech chasing is a must as always and his nikita is a great off stage tool but those are self explanatory. Happy Smashing!
 

Marmotbro

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Also practice with your Nikita Missile. That thing is very good in this game. Use it to pressure, edgeguard, kill, hell i even use it as a ghetto Fsmash sometimes.
 

Perversion

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I have a tendency to spam grenades in downtime to ward areas off. I'm still having a bit of trouble manipulating them (often hard throwing rather than the desired up-tossed ones) but I'm getting it down slowly; I didn't realize that you could drop grenade while in shield and that does make for a good tool to combat grab happy characters. I think the hardest thing I have doing is effectively sticking my opponents and just resort to planting C4 in locations that could result in a kill. I'm going to have to practice a lot more with the C4 in order to properly get used to it. Nikita is very fun and I used to have an issue accidentally using it when I wanted Grenade over it, but that kind of screwing up has diminished.

I think the one thing that puzzles me is the lack of dthrow follow ups. Did a bit of labbing and if the opponent mashes out of it, there's nothing for us to follow up with until 160%. I would like advice on that because it would seem like it's our best throw.

As much as I do enjoy short-hop nair with Snake, I don't actually prefer the entirety of nair coming out. I usually like the first 1-3 hits come out and follow up with utilt. Especially at higher percents.
 

Marmotbro

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I think the one thing that puzzles me is the lack of dthrow follow ups. Did a bit of labbing and if the opponent mashes out of it, there's nothing for us to follow up with until 160%. I would like advice on that because it would seem like it's our best throw.
I think Dthrow is a lot worse in this game, other then cheeky C4 plants and them rolling into a grenade there isn't much follow up for it. Snake's grab game is mediocre overall in ultimate i feel, I only ever use Bthrow regularly to throw them off the stage and kill off walkoffs like a degenerate.


Dthrow is great BM though.
 
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Perversion

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Well, from what I found out, with dthrow is that there is only one potential follow up for each way rolled outside of dthrow stun. If the opponent rolls away from you, then there's an opening where you can dash attack, and if the opponent rolls through you to get behind you can stagger out an ftilt to hit all before shield becomes available but the timing of it is quite tight. The get up attack option is the only thing with no answer and all this made me feel that Snake's dthrow isn't very viable.

Are there any good follow ups to gain with uthrow, fthrow, or bthrow? I've also had luck with C4 placement and grab-release.
 

DavemanCozy

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Well, from what I found out, with dthrow is that there is only one potential follow up for each way rolled outside of dthrow stun. If the opponent rolls away from you, then there's an opening where you can dash attack, and if the opponent rolls through you to get behind you can stagger out an ftilt to hit all before shield becomes available but the timing of it is quite tight. The get up attack option is the only thing with no answer and all this made me feel that Snake's dthrow isn't very viable.

Are there any good follow ups to gain with uthrow, fthrow, or bthrow? I've also had luck with C4 placement and grab-release.
You can probably do short-hop back air if they roll behind you. Worth a try? Also maybe try full jump dair when they do getup attack? I'll have to try this later today when my switch is done charging.

What I do know is Uthrow -> Utilt at low percents. Bthrow and Fthrow are kill throws near the ledge, not designed for follow ups more so to get some pressure relieved from Snake. I believe Fthrow is stronger
 

DavemanCozy

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I don't think we do yet. I have killed with them before in a match, I think the lightest one I got with it was Pichu and his percent was a bit below 100%, but that is all I remember.
 

Perversion

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I guess I'll lab that out later today. Do we have a confirmation of who's the lightest and the heaviest in the cast?
 

Shuckle89

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That I can tell. Pichu is the lighest, bowser still the heaviest. He has been made slightly heavier than the previous game, otherwise k rool would have been heaviest, who is now second
 

bunnyma

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If you press down on a platform while holding a grenade after pulling it, you can drop down.
You can double jump now after pulling a grenade out.
You can conceal Snake's down+b animation using the explosion of upsmash if you face left, crouch, move to where upsmash hits and plant c4 as upsmash explodes.
 

Perversion

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Pichu: Bthrow kills at 119% on Battlefield. Fthrow kills at 121%. On the ledge nearest to their respective blastzones.

Bowser: Bthrow kills at 173%. Fthrow kills at 185%.

A tad bit disappointing if you ask me.
 

DavemanCozy

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Thanks Perversion.

Yeah that is disappointing indeed... my opponent probably just didn't do good DI, or maybe I had rage going, or both.

Guess those throws are gonna be better just to set up traps and put some distance between you and your opponent.
 

Perversion

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Most likely a bit of both as I had Snake at 0%. Rage would probably be a big factor especially since Snake can survive quite a long time. Looks like uthrow is our combo throw out of all of them, I did a bit of minor testing with uthrow. Didn't kill Bowser at 185% from base of stage. Again, while Snake is at 0% so without rage.

Edit: I would've gotten a lot of this done sooner, but currently taking finals so I was away for quite some time today.
 
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speedguy20

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The bottom part I copied my response to the Grenade Canceling thread, but anyways I feel snake is very much space control and just out playing neutral with grenades, jabs and well spaced fairs (seriously, this thing has so much shield stun if you land it, its disgusting). But what I feel will separate good snake players from godly snake players is their management of grenades and c4 placement. I feel trying to bait out c4 is a bit of a waste of time since most characters in this game seem to have a bit faster run speed and less landing lag in general, while snake got neither, and by trying to setup c4 combos I feel getting chip damage from grenade is a bit more important (10% per grenade really adds up quick, and people tend to get reckless towards the end of a game if snake is at a higher percent). Now I do feel like it is worth trying c4 setup every here and then if an opponent is at 90+ just as a good kill mix-up and make them rethink approaches, but it becomes a 1 trick pony really quick.
Useful tech:
-B-reversal (run in one direction, jump, press B and IMMEDIATELY the opposite direction of your momentum. This keeps momentum going towards the opposite direction and is very useful for grenades such as using up-B, cypher, early when recovering so that you end up being above the stage, and then B-reversing the grenade to really throw an opponent off).
-Crouch Cancelling (CC) your dash. While you are mid dash hold down, and you will be allowed to immediately use any move you please, but I mainly use it for dash dancing then surprising an enemy with a f-tilt or u-tilt. this can make for some really surprising kills.
Kill Options
-F-tilt *smacks gc controller* this bad boy comes out so fast it'll make you think you're sonic for a second. For real, it's like a second jab, but it can kill at 100 if it's not stale. First hit of Jab to F-tilt I find is a nice shield poke and some enemies drop their shield after the original jab. Also a great ledge trap option when your opponent is grabbed on ledge is to dash towards, away then immediately hit F-tilt. If they roll, the second hit will connect, if they get up attack, the second hit will clash. It will condition the enemy to jump from ledge which is when you get a free F-air spike.
-D-Air I find this move amazing for shield pressure IE drop grenade, opponent shields, d-Air their shield, and by the final hit the grenade will go off allowing you to either grab (because they're stuck in hitstun) or get a cheeky fair for a potential shield break. Works decently for roll from ledge, but I feel Snake has better options for covering this. I'm not sure if the final hit is a spike or not because most the time when I land it, the opponent is sent to the side.
-U-tilt It's like our godly F-tilt, but ment for being an anti air (if an opponent is approaching with air attacks, use this to stop them dead in their track 100% of the time - Ganon and Falcon D-air have something to say about that, but other than that it's a very useful tool).
-U-air I find this better as a tool for reads on if they air dodge. It does a nice amount of damage, but I feel the hitbox is a little slim, especially if playing with online lag.
-F-air this....thing.....it haunts me at night....how good a move can be and just as sexy. Hit with the heel and it's a spike, no ifs ands or butts (unless it's snake's) and if you hit with his upper leg part, oh would you look at that, I see a body flying into the blast zone! This thing rivals falcons D-air even, and I honestly can't wait till frame data is available so I can scoff at that godzilla sized hitbox. It can be stringed from 1st hit of jab -> d-tilt -> F-air. I've even been able to get it from f-throw at lower percents, gimping the hell out of a Lil'Mac (sorry, not sorry) and I find it works surprisingly well if you can time it after an opponent gets exploded from your grenade (I recommend run up with grenade, shield, and then get some free real estate).
Other Notes: I find c4 is useful at ledge if your opponent likes to re grab, or just as a general edge guard against characters who don't immediately grab ledge. Nikita is waifu like mentioned earlier, and I find that if you fly it right above the ledge and then cancel your missile (press shield) it makes for a nice ledge trap in which you can run up grab, and f-throw which can lead to a whole other mind game with your opponent. I don't like to Short hop N-air because I feel like I get hit out of it too often to be reliable, but when it works, it nicely links into F-tilt. Run up D-smash is surprisingly effective because it comes out fast and has low recovery (might be safe on block).
Below is how to grenade good.
1. pulling your grenade out
2. tapping shield (to drop the grenade asap)
3. pick it up by either jabbing or air dodging near the ground (don't recommend)
From here you can either z drop it because it has normal item properties now (if you tap your c stick fast your item will be thrown farther, slower for a lighter toss) or you can run up to your opponent and shield. Be careful with this as a skilled opponent will just grab and throw you and won't take damage due to i-frames from the throw. You can also air dodge past your opponent because in Ultimate you don't drop your grenades when you air dodge, and you get that i-frame period during your air dodge, which can lead to a fair if properly spaced.
Most important though GRENADES EXPLODE AFTER 2.5 SECONDS. Abuse this knowledge.
 
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J.Noble

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I feel that one thing we have to focus on is defense. I've been trying him out, got in to elite smash and have been going up in GSP pretty consistently but I can already tell that rush down characters are going to be an issue. I'll be honest, my fundamentals are average at but I just want to make sure we highlight survival and talk about steps to not being combo food and maintaining stage control while fighting rush down characters. Like maybe this is a matchup discussion but how would fighting Chrom or Inkling work? Players like Leffen are criticizing Snake for his lack of recourse when he's under pressure. Fundamentals should be the first thing you learn with this character because even though he has all the firepower in the world, how is he going to use it if he's off stage all day?
 

DavemanCozy

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Snake's disadvantage state is garbage. Getting juggled makes you rely on grenades, coming back onstage is tough too and relies on the heavy armor that cypher has, as well as mixing up your airdodges. A good thing to do as well is mid-air jump -> d-air which gives you a fair amount of height to your second jump. Also Snake can throw grenades while making it back onstage, or even just hold them to prevent getting gimped hard since the explosion knockback launches up. So he's got stuff he can do, it's just risky.

Against Inkling I haven't had too many problems, since the neutral is far more manageable. Against Chrom? Yeah, I wouldn't doubt if that's Snake's worst matchup currently, but I will say that parrying his d-tilt and dancing blade pressure has been incredibly useful in getting in. Harder done than said, but I think parrying is worth mastering, as it's gonna be so pivotal in the future of this game.
 
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J.Noble

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With Inkling, same here but what I fear with them is their speed. I was watching Armada play around with iStudying who had Snake and Snake didn't even have a chance with Inking using only fairs. You're absolutely right about the disadvantage state. I think a solution is this: Snake with all his options are going to be great but one thing we have to watch out for is over relying on his tools: thinking that if I spam up-smash, grenades and C-4 that's all I need to do. To me, that's what hinders zoner mains in the past: They don't acknowledge the situations where their tools aren't a factor: Getting juggled, carried off-stage grabbed every 3 seconds, edge-guarded. Shoot, I'm guilty of this as well! Those scenarios should be analyzed to build up a defensive philosophy....Crap. I just gave myself work to do lol. Long story short, we have to come up with disadvantage state scenarios and how to defend against getting caught and how to get out of them. That's probably it's own thread though.
 

Victor Coelho

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speedguy20 speedguy20 Good info mate, thanks for sharing it. Didn't know about that jab-dtilt-fair string.... and to be honest i hardly use fair for pressure, but it does really have a huge hit stun there. The grenade drop, dair for shield damage/stun is another great tip i haven't think about it. I usually do dair after blocking an attack, 20.4% in one attack is too damn good.

What i really want to learn is how to use grenade to control neutral. I see pro players holding the grenade and netting grabs from that and i just dont have the slightest idea how to do it. Can someone please breakdown that proccess for me?

Thanks in advance
 

WumboTheSecond

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Learn how to create pressure on the opponent with the rockets. For example sending a rocket to the other side of the stage while trying to smash attack them over there. Kind of similar of how you use the bombs with Link to create pressure and tension. Also the Rockets are great for taking away someones chance to recover.
 

DavemanCozy

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With Inkling, same here but what I fear with them is their speed. I was watching Armada play around with iStudying who had Snake and Snake didn't even have a chance with Inking using only fairs.
This is just theorizing but in regards specifically to Inkling's f-air, Snake's crouch is very low. It's the lowest in the game, tied with Kirby and Jigglypuff. Perhaps he can crouch to dodge that f-air. I know for sure that Snake can crouch under Villager and Isabelle's SH slingshot aerials, so I'm thinking he may be able to do the same with Inkling's F-air?
 

WumboTheSecond

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This is just theorizing but in regards specifically to Inkling's f-air, Snake's crouch is very low. It's the lowest in the game, tied with Kirby and Jigglypuff. Perhaps he can crouch to dodge that f-air. I know for sure that Snake can crouch under Villager and Isabelle's SH slingshot aerials, so I'm thinking he may be able to do the same with Inkling's F-air?
I thought Sheik's was the lowest? I guess I was wrong
 

DavemanCozy

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I thought Sheik's was the lowest? I guess I was wrong
No you're not wrong, Shieks is tied with them too. As well as Wii Fit trainers crouch (lol).

So the lowest crouches in the game are Kirby, Snake, Shiek, Wii Fit, and Jigglypuff.

Maybe there are some slight differences in their heights but they're so low and used for similar purposes that the difference is moot..
 

DavemanCozy

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So the summary;

160%, dthrow to utilt is guaranteed

Before that, get them to 100% at least before doing dthrow, and read from there
 

Perversion

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Pretty much what we already labbed out, but yes. Although I didn't test the ftilt portion, which was news to me. So that's always good to know.
 

speedguy20

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speedguy20 speedguy20 What i really want to learn is how to use grenade to control neutral. I see pro players holding the grenade and netting grabs from that and i just dont have the slightest idea how to do it. Can someone please breakdown that proccess for me?

Thanks in advance
At the begining of a match, I throw a grenade right at my opponent, and then I pull out a second one and greande grab it and run at my opponent. The first grenade forces your opponent to either approach, hold shield, or pick up grenade (and usually toss it back), but this forces the opponent to play with your tempo. From there you try to win neutral exchanges by mixing up your grenade approach. Sometimes you can scare an opponent with grenades so much that you can just run up and grab, or run up N-air to C4.

If you do find yourself getting caught in combos, try and grenade camp them a little to slow down the pace, then rush in with a cross up D-air (landing behind them so they can't shield grab.

Side Note: If you are facing a projectile spam character and they sit back and spam, just throw grenades. As long as you're trading damage, I guarantee that you are winning 90% of the projectile based match-ups. Trading favors snake a lot due to his weight and recovery mix-ups.

There's an amazing smasher named Jtails and he got big in Smash 4 after defeating M2k and Zero. He has done this video about discussing the mindset of Snake, but I feel like his random matches online give you a better idea of what his play style is like
 

REZERO

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At the begining of a match, I throw a grenade right at my opponent, and then I pull out a second one and greande grab it and run at my opponent. The first grenade forces your opponent to either approach, hold shield, or pick up grenade (and usually toss it back), but this forces the opponent to play with your tempo. From there you try to win neutral exchanges by mixing up your grenade approach. Sometimes you can scare an opponent with grenades so much that you can just run up and grab, or run up N-air to C4.

If you do find yourself getting caught in combos, try and grenade camp them a little to slow down the pace, then rush in with a cross up D-air (landing behind them so they can't shield grab.

Side Note: If you are facing a projectile spam character and they sit back and spam, just throw grenades. As long as you're trading damage, I guarantee that you are winning 90% of the projectile based match-ups. Trading favors snake a lot due to his weight and recovery mix-ups.

There's an amazing smasher named Jtails and he got big in Smash 4 after defeating M2k and Zero. He has done this video about discussing the mindset of Snake, but I feel like his random matches online give you a better idea of what his play style is like
Watching both videos will help you understand what he's doing in the elite smash one though. Highly recommend watching the other one.
 

Perversion

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One thing I have a question on is recovering. I've been seeing high level Snakes (most notably MVD and Ally) recovering very high. I am hoping for some clarification on this as I've always thought this was more of a bad thing. I get trying to set up from above, but what other reasoning is there for it?
 

REZERO

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One thing I have a question on is recovering. I've been seeing high level Snakes (most notably MVD and Ally) recovering very high. I am hoping for some clarification on this as I've always thought this was more of a bad thing. I get trying to set up from above, but what other reasoning is there for it?
I think its just to contest because snake is a heavy character. Flying high he can be reversal with grenades and most characters who contest with him at that point are losing.
 

DavaiZhe

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I think Dthrow is a lot worse in this game, other then cheeky C4 plants and them rolling into a grenade there isn't much follow up for it. Snake's grab game is mediocre overall in ultimate i feel, I only ever use Bthrow regularly to throw them off the stage and kill off walkoffs like a degenerate.


Dthrow is great BM though.
Dthrow true combos into utilt at excactly 160%

EDIT: was said already, sorry
 
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the_lennyface

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I'm working on a quick grenade guide video for newer Snake players in Smash Ultimate. So far I'm planning on covering basic grenade mechanics, shielding with grenades, grenade cooking, b-reversal, and the d-throw invulnerability combo with the grenades. Any ideas on another mechanic I could cover?
 

the_lennyface

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I'm working on a quick grenade guide video for newer Snake players in Smash Ultimate. So far I'm planning on covering basic grenade mechanics, shielding with grenades, grenade cooking, b-reversal, and the d-throw invulnerability combo with the grenades. Any ideas on another mechanic I could cover?
Well I got no responses so I went ahead and made the video lol.
Any thoughts?
 
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Perversion

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I honestly meant to respond to say that any good informative Snake content is always welcome and something we need to start doing. Sadly, my internet is complete trash so uploading and even playing online isn't even an option for me. However, I encourage people to take the initiative and your work is very much welcomed. I highly appreciate it.
 
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