What I've learned using Ganon and how it's helped me.

[WarioWaft]

Never really used Ganon in Melee or Brawl. I saw the appeal but his lack of speed is what made me look away.

I've been playing with him the last 2 days now and he's actually really fun to use.

Using him has helped me learn how to be more patient with my mains (Wario & Duck Hunt). I generally attack a lot with those two but with Ganon I have to be more patient, move around more and bite my tongue on wanting to attack up close. Have to keep moving and hopping until I see a good opening.

I'm still learning how to properly use him (52-62 WL in For Glory with my Ganon name). Biggest difficulty by far is against projectile spam via Link or Samus.

 

[JmacAttack]

Never really used Ganon in Melee or Brawl. I saw the appeal but his lack of speed is what made me look away.

I've been playing with him the last 2 days now and he's actually really fun to use.

Using him has helped me learn how to be more patient with my mains (Wario & Duck Hunt). I generally attack a lot with those two but with Ganon I have to be more patient, move around more and bite my tongue on wanting to attack up close. Have to keep moving and hopping until I see a good opening.

I'm still learning how to properly use him (52-62 WL in For Glory with my Ganon name). Biggest difficulty by far is against projectile spam via Link or Samus.

Projectile spammers are difficult for Ganon at first, but I find that the most important skill to learn as Ganon against these types of players is how to Flame Choke punish on whiffed smash attacks, learning the spacing on Wizard Foot, how to do nair on approach, how to bait out attacks and wait out dangerous hitboxes, and how to do turnaround ftilt out of shield, since these players invariably roll behind you the second you get close, and if you don't get them with a quick turnaround ftilt, they'll be on the other side of the stage spamming ranged attacks again. These players are also good for teaching you how to bait out attacks, since in Samus' case, you need to block that charge shot, and for spammer Links, they usually start throwing out wild dash attacks and smash attacks once their spam becomes ineffective, both of which are very punishable. If they launch you in the air, they usually follow with Up-air, which is a bait, because it looks like you can Wizard Foot him, but it has a disjoint that Wizard Foot can't break. However, once its hitbox ends, Link is wide open, so you can wait out the up-air and then punish.

Spammer Links also give you the opportunity to hop over the boomerang and ride the windbox back for a Warlock Punch to the face. Those are great.

It's honestly possible to reach a point where they can't defeat you with spam characters because you know all their tricks. This is the nature of playing Ganon -- he's all about making reads, and by proxy, knowing matchups. When you know exactly what your opponent is going to do in response to pressure, you can start making hard reads.

 

[WarioWaft]

As I mentioned int he other thread, I'm fine running the gauntlet of projectiles but once I actually got to Link he grabbed me when I shielded.

 

[WarioWaft]

Been playing for about an hour since I posted that and I've played a few Ness and Links and a DHD. I'm getting better avoiding spam projectiles but everyone just wants to camp and make me run.

If the match wasn't timed I'd just sit on the other side and do the same to them.

Also, I almost threw my controller at the screen because I perfectly timed two down aerial attacks while Ness was trying to recover with the PK and both times even though I timed it perfectly for some reason the game gave Ness priority over my meteor smash.

I'm also annoyed at how a lot of my attacks seem to have low priority with weaker characters.

 

[Conn1496]

I totally agree with this thread - learning Ganondorf is essentially learning the defensive side of smash, and that's important. In smash4 Ganon is my undisputed king of the defensive, and that's totally changed my view on how to play not just him, but all characters. Now his warlock punch even has armour, you can even use the wind-up defensively if done right.

As for your attack priority? Your attacks have pretty good priority thanks to their sheer damage, however, you'll almost never beat a projectile, solely because of their difficulty to out-prioritise, but that's where your shield skills should start getting put to use anyway - the slow, angry, block and walk offensive that Dorf is so good at.

As for PK Thunder, that is especially nasty - it's pretty fast, and the trail of it is transcendant in priority, so it will completely out-prioritise anything you throw at it. That might be what's giving you trouble. Don't try to meteor smash into PKT. It's unsafe to challenge. Hell, jumping into the actual projectile and making his recovery fail is even a better move. If you don't like those chances, try to take him side-on, so PKT won't get you, or - your safer option - punish on recovery.

Hope the things I've said helps.

 

[MechanicalRhythm]

I don't know about "king of defensive"- I would probably give that title to someone like Zard, who has plenty of OoS options and ways to zone his opponents, and the godsend that is Rock Smash. Ganon is merely forced into his shield all the time, which, while that probably makes him the most defensive character, doesn't really make him the best at defense because he can't really do an awful lot with it. How does Ganon punish anything from shield? How does he keep his opponents at bay?

Ganon lives in this strange dichotomy where on one hand he has to be be played defensively in order to succeed, since he lacks approach tools and has a limited amount of safe options to scare his opponents with, but on the other hand his defensive options are pretty poor. Ganon is not scaring anyone when he is hiding in his shield. Often that's where they want him, because he's near helpless there. However, Ganon wins when he can get in on them and start dishing out pain hard, and the only way to really get in on them... is to use your shield a lot, throw out a lot of empty attacks (dtilt, nair, etc) to discourage them, and wait for them to screw up. It's not the best set of tools ever but its what we've got.

I think perhaps the best way to describe it is that Ganon is the most defensive character in neutral. Once Ganon finds a way in and gets advantage your game plan changes drastically, since you rely so hard on reads and punishes to win. You must reward your own patience with enforcing total dominance at that point, else it will return to neutral and Ganon doesn't want to go back there, because he will inevitably lose.

 

[Conn1496]

Well, I find it down to personal opinion. I find Charizard tough to play as for many a reason, and rarely manage to pull a punish or OoS comeback. I don't even find Rock Smash reliable. Got more armour pulloffs out of Ganon's Warlock Punch. -and he punishes pretty well from shield in my experience. Jab and F-tilt, and even Side-B are nice follow-ups OoS - and his D-Smash can catch some rollers by surprise, and pretty nastily too. Ganon's defensive is pretty ensnaring, making good use of his also decent offensive to stop opponents pulling it back too quickly, and that's what makes him my top defender in my play.

The difference between Dorf and Charizard's defensive is that Dorf has the offensive tools to make use of a good defensive. He has moves that hit hard and while they usually wind-up quite slow, usually don't take long to shield back into, most notoriously, his U-Smash, which is pretty safe on hit, even if shielded. As for charizard, his hitbox is just too big for a decent defensive for his attack range and options in my experience (The amount of times people have rolled out of a OoS punish against me as Char is kinda rediculous.), with his OoS just not doing enough to make a reliable comeback. Plus, I find Charizard just does better offensively than his defence anyway, though that could just be a playstyle preference.

(Plus, pseudo-recovery Ganoncides at high % are flipping hilarious - mean, and cheap - but effective and hilarious. Unless you're not in the lead, then... *shrug*)

 

[MechanicalRhythm]

I think you'll find very few people agree with you on many of the things you've stated. I play both Zard and Ganon extensively (I would list him as a main but apparently I can only pick two), and I don't think there is any way on earth Ganons OoS game comes even close to Zards. With Zard you have Jab, grab (with amazing range), Fly, Rock Smash (potentially sliding or reversed), Dtilt, Usmash, and Flamethrower to punish all sorts of scenarios. Even Nair works. Zard thrives when he is in shield because he has a massive range of tools to punish reckless opponents. Rock Smash is possibly Zards best move as it is a counter that doesn't necessarily require you to read an attack to punish an opponent hard, whilst also giving Zard a great edgeguarding option and helping him stay alive to really high %s. It covers him both offensively and defensively.

On top of that, Zard has a decent zoning game with his Nair, Ftilt, and Flamethrower that help him control his opponent. With all of these tools, Charizard is very very comfortable playing a defensive role because he has many ways to deal with aggression and can force trades, which for a big guy like him is far more often than not favourable. Overall, Zards moveset gives him a lot of options to control his opponent from a mid to close range, and against projectile spammers he can instill the fear of Flare Blitz against them to force their approach more.

Ganon has a terrible grab range and few fast, hard to punish options. Jab, dtilt and ftilt are okay but they can all be punished in the same manner with shield. Nair is less punishable if you pull it back but in doing so it makes it harder to break open your opponent if you're retreating. Unfortunately to actually make good use of these option he has to perfect shield every time, otherwise these are easily taken advantage of. His OoS game just isn't versatile enough to actually be good. Usmash is one of his best OoS options but the horizontal range is pretty bad which limits how much you can really make use of it, straight up requiring a perfect shield.

Ganon does not have a zoning game outside of poking with dtilt. He has to be up close and personal to put in work, which is where he has to be the aggressor and take control of the match. However lacking those zoning options to control your opponent at midrange does weaken a characters defensive game. Ganondorf HAS to approach and HAS to get stuck in. He cannot find a way into his opponent safely from a distance. This does not mean that Ganon does not have a strong punish game- its one of the best. But there is nothing good about Ganons defense, because he cannot punish from it well. There is very little synergy in it. Because of that, Ganon cannot directly deal with aggression, he can only be patient and wait for an opening. He has to play defensively because he has no other options. Its the best way for him to gain a positional advantage. Once you get that, you ditch the defense and start going for the reads and punishes.

This isn't to compare the two as characters universally. Ganon has a lot of strengths and can end stocks scarily easily. But his defense is not one of those strengths.

Also, even with SA, Warlock punch is still very bad and no-one should be getting caught by it.

 

[_Magus_]

I'll say this: no other character has improved my play quite as much as the King. He gives you nothing; no, to work with the king of evil, you have to pull your own weight. YOU earn your followups, YOU earn your reads, YOU earn your punishes. He could help you, but he wants your own power to grow, so he makes you learn the hard way. And I love it.

 

[Lavani]

Also, I almost threw my controller at the screen because I perfectly timed two down aerial attacks while Ness was trying to recover with the PK and both times even though I timed it perfectly for some reason the game gave Ness priority over my meteor smash..

If you're trying to challenge PKT2, the early portion of it is invincible.

 

[WarioWaft]

The biggest thing I'm still learning but have improved drastically int he last 24 hours is the spacing needed for a grounded Wizard's Kick. I made the mistake of doing it too close before and it being useless. But now I have that feel for how much space I need to leave between my opponent and I to pull it off.

The best ones are when the speedsters get overly aggressive and keep running at you. If done right you can connect two Wizard Kicks in a row (if they roll backwards).

 

[JmacAttack]

As I mentioned int he other thread, I'm fine running the gauntlet of projectiles but once I actually got to Link he grabbed me when I shielded.

Then roll behind him, attack, or spot dodge instead of shielding. You're reading an attack but he's using a grab. If you read the grab, do the things that counter grabs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm still learning how to properly use him (52-62 WL in For Glory with my Ganon name). Biggest difficulty by far is against projectile spam via Link or Samus.

Link in my experience is really easy for Ganondorf. I believe this matchup is 55/45 Ganon's favor. Don't take unnecessary damage from Boomerang and Arrows. Focus on getting in D-tilt range, and respect his Jab and F-smash. You can punish his Jab on block easily or outspace it with D-tilt, and his F-smash is also unsafe on block. He will grab you a few times. Don't worry about that, because he has the worst throws in the game. Eventually, you will have an opportunity to get him offstage, and kill him. Throw a U-air or N-air at his recovery, it will usually kill him instantly even at low percents if you catch him out of his midair jump. In contrast, Link will struggle to kill you as long as you don't let him get free Smashes unnecessarily.

Vs Samus technically I believe is even, but that matchup will always be very tedious because it is much harder to edgeguard and juggle Samus, and you have to respect her DA and Charge Shot in midrange. Similarly, you just want to be really patient, and go for D-tilt and Jab pokes when applicable, and shield her attacks. Her grab game is better than Link's, so it's more important to find a way to be mobile in that matchup to avoid her grab and punish it. However as long as you do not let her land F-smash or Charge Shot easily, you will always have a big advantage in KOing her.

 

[JmacAttack]

Toon Link is even easier. He's Link with like half the weight, and none of the reach. Also has poor options out of gerudo, as he gets hit by dtilt even if he makes the tech. Can't ride his boomerang back, sadly.

I think our easiest matchup is vs. Olimar, because half of our approach options simultaneously murder all attached and whiffed Pikmin, so he can't rack up damage on Ganon very easily, and also means Ganon takes away Olimar's attack options by approaching, if Olimar was unwise enough to throw all his Pikmin. His smash attacks are also very linear, and thus easy to read and punish.

 

[adom4]

Toon Link is even easier. He's Link with like half the weight, and none of the reach. Also has poor options out of gerudo, as he gets hit by dtilt even if he makes the tech. Can't ride his boomerang back, sadly.

I think our easiest matchup is vs. Olimar, because half of our approach options simultaneously murder all attached and whiffed Pikmin, so he can't rack up damage on Ganon very easily, and also means Ganon takes away Olimar's attack options by approaching, if Olimar was unwise enough to throw all his Pikmin. His smash attacks are also very linear, and thus easy to read and punish.

With customs we can use dark fists out of a choke against Olimar, it kills him at like 50-60%.

 

[MagiusNecros]

With customs we can use dark fists out of a choke against Olimar, it kills him at like 50-60%.

You can do the same to ROB if he is at like 80%.

 

[adom4]

You can do the same to ROB if he is at like 80%.

I don't think it works on R.O.B, to my knowledge it only works on Olimar.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't think it works on R.O.B, to my knowledge it only works on Olimar.

If they miss the tech I believe it works.

 

[JmacAttack]

If they miss the tech I believe it works.

It only works on ROB if they are REALLY slow about choosing a getup option. It works on most characters only if they just opt to lie there. Olimar, on the other hand, can't act out of a missed tech fast enough to escape it.

It MIGHT work on others if they opt to tech in place, but more than likely, the startup delay will allow them to shield it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It only works on ROB if they are REALLY slow about choosing a getup option. It works on most characters only if they just opt to lie there. Olimar, on the other hand, can't act out of a missed tech fast enough to escape it.

It MIGHT work on others if they opt to tech in place, but more than likely, the startup delay will allow them to shield it.

That makes sense.

 

[JmacAttack]

Toon Link is even easier. He's Link with like half the weight, and none of the reach. Also has poor options out of gerudo, as he gets hit by dtilt even if he makes the tech. Can't ride his boomerang back, sadly.

I think our easiest matchup is vs. Olimar, because half of our approach options simultaneously murder all attached and whiffed Pikmin, so he can't rack up damage on Ganon very easily, and also means Ganon takes away Olimar's attack options by approaching, if Olimar was unwise enough to throw all his Pikmin. His smash attacks are also very linear, and thus easy to read and punish.

Case in point.