What is considered broken?

[Mr.Random]

I've been meaning to make this thread for a very long time but I was to afraid to. Now that I'm strong enough to post this.
What does the PMBR and other people think that makes a move toxic or broken? What would you consider broken? Do not say Spacies! I'm talking about moves. Is it the start up? The power? The endlag? The utility?
Please state your honest opinions and let's be adults about this.
Edit: What causes a character to be OP in your opinion? That should be less annoying to answer.

 

[9bit]

It's hard to call a single move, let alone a single aspect of a move, broken. You have to take into account the entire character.

When people considered Ike broken in a previous version of this mod it was because many of his attacks were too safe on shield (and in general). He could just throw them out without having to worry too much about spacing or finesse: he could just power in and wear you down.

Space Animal shines were considered a little too good because it gave you invincibility on a frame when you used it. Not broken, but not really necessary on characters already as good as Space Animals are.

A move that's perfectly fine on one character could be considered broken on another. Let's say you gave Fox Captain Falcon's forward air. On Captain Falcon it's an essential part of his play and not considered broken. But if Fox had it... forget about it. Broken all day long.

 

[Mr.Random]

It's hard to call a single move, let alone a single aspect of a move, broken. You have to take into account the entire character.

When people considered Ike broken in a previous version of this mod it was because many of his attacks were too safe on shield (and in general). He could just throw them out without having to worry too much about spacing or finesse: he could just power in and wear you down.

Space Animal shines were considered a little too good because it gave you invincibility on a frame when you used it. Not broken, but not really necessary on characters already as good as Space Animals are.

A move that's perfectly fine on one character could be considered broken on another. Let's say you gave Fox Captain Falcon's forward air. On Captain Falcon it's an essential part of his play and not considered broken. But if Fox had it... forget about it. Broken all day long.

Fox with a knee of justice? Oh my god I'm having nightmares.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Fox with a knee of justice? Oh my god I'm having nightmares.

I can see it now. Instead of saying "YES!", Fox would shout "CAHM ON!" and he'd be able to kill you aerially off the top or off the side effortlessly.

This really is the stuff of nightmares.

 

[NightShadow6]

Charizards nair.

 

[Vashimus]

Something is broken when it's overpowering or over-centralizing to the point where it ruins the metagame by superseding other gameplay elements. It practically eclipses every other option.

Broken characters are the more common example in fighters, even though are actually pretty rare. Akuma in Super Turbo, Meta Knight in Brawl, the God tier of MvC2, CvS1 Nakoruru, Exdeath in Dissidia (and Ultimecia in its sequel) are really the only ones that come to mind to me. In their respective games, a large majority of the cast just cannot beat them. I don't mean it's a tough fight -- I mean that they cannot ever, ever, ever ever, ever win. They're not merely the best characters in the game, they're at least fifty times better than every other character, and then some.

It's hard to say when a move is broken, because you have to take in mind the rest of the character. Ness' PK Fire is always complained about for being broken, when in reality Ness is balanced around how strong his PK Fire is as other aspects of his play are weaker. The reason spacies get so much flak, and this is the case with a lot of top tiers in most fighting games, is that they end up being very good in too many areas, whereas by design they shouldn't be.

 

[Mr.Random]

Something is broken when it's overpowering or over-centralizing to the point where it ruins the metagame by superseding other gameplay elements. It practically eclipses every other option.

Broken characters are the more common example in fighters, even though are actually pretty rare. Akuma in Super Turbo, Meta Knight in Brawl, the God tier of MvC2, CvS1 Nakoruru, Exdeath in Dissidia (and Ultimecia in its sequel) are really the only ones that come to mind to me. In their respective games, a large majority of the cast just cannot beat them. I don't mean it's a tough fight -- I mean that they cannot ever, ever, ever ever, ever win. They're not merely the best characters in the game, they're at least fifty times better than every other character, and then some.

It's hard to say when a move is broken, because you have to take in mind the rest of the character. Ness' PK Fire is always complained about for being broken, when in reality Ness is balanced around how strong his PK Fire is as other aspects of his play are weaker. The reason spacies get so much flak, and this is the case with a lot of top tiers in most fighting games, is that they end up being very good in too many areas, whereas by design they shouldn't be.

I think Spacies are an interesting case. All three of them are hard to pick up and play compared to the rest of the cast (not counting Lucario).
Well Fox and Falco aren't good at recovering and being offstage. Not to mention that every mistake they make could be a death combo or a bunch of % at the highest level of play. I understand where people are coming from. If the Spacies could be played absolutely perfectly then they are definitely overpowered. But since we are human, we are eventually going to make a mistake, and that mistake as Spacies either puts you offstage, kills you, or makes you eat 50+ percent.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

(and Ultimecia in its sequel)

I wondered why that character with her spammy long range high damage crap was always so annoyingly difficult to do anything about. So she was borked. Makes sense.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Being able to mindlessly play a character without regard for spacing, strategy or significant drawbacks in general. From what I understand, 2.0 Ike's problem was the reduced hitlag on shield, making all his moves too safe on block giving him an odd sort of speed boost, as well as a playstyle that comprised of FAIRFAIRFAIRFAIRFAIRFAIR. 2.5 Sonic had spincamping. Lucario had some issues somewhere in there as well.

Also, people like to crap on spacies a lot, but their high fall speed, poor and rather linear recoveries as well as ability to be combo'd as hard as they can combo people balances them out plenty. You want to argue a perfectly played spacie is broken, show me the guy who can actually do that 100% of the time.

 

[Vashimus]

I think Spacies are an interesting case. All three of them are hard to pick up and play compared to the rest of the cast (not counting Lucario).
Well Fox and Falco aren't good at recovering and being offstage. Not to mention that every mistake they make could be a death combo or a bunch of % at the highest level of play. I understand where people are coming from. If the Spacies could be played absolutely perfectly then they are definitely overpowered. But since we are human, we are eventually going to make a mistake, and that mistake as Spacies either puts you offstage, kills you, or makes you eat 50+ percent.

Spacies, particularly Fox and Falco, are really not as insanely difficult as people make them out to be. In terms of how much tech there is out there, crazy **** like triple waveshine or what have you -- oh yeah, that's not easy to learn. Is it necessary for them to win match ups? Certainly not. If you're a really good player, you can be successful with a spacie. You see "pocket spacies" all the time in Melee (look, they even have a term for it!). Not so much in P:M, since the balance is much better, but they're still there.

And that's another thing. How difficult a character is to play is practically rendered moot at high level. Once you've gotten close to mastering the character, it stops being a weakness. Magneto's a difficult character to use in Marvel 2. That didn't stop really good players to get good with the character and wreck shop with him. If people were just getting into a game I would say picking up harder character would be liability, as you're starting out climbing a much steeper hill than you would with other characters. But let's say *random top player*...Reflex!... started using Fox as one of his subs, and I have no doubt in my mind he will make him work.

Spacie recoveries are not bad because they have two ways to recover. Some characters will kill to have that because they're forever stuck with their Dolphin Slash or what have you.

I wondered why that character with her spammy long range high damage crap was always so annoyingly difficult to do anything about. So she was borked. Makes sense.

Imagine my pain as a Kain player (though Jump does help slightly).

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Imagine my pain as a Kain player (though Jump does help slightly).

I used Tidus, so it wasn't that much better. On the bright side, Prishe turned out to be pretty damned good. Not quite Ultimecia good, but good. I never got to see it though since the game was really polarizing and the fun drained from it decently fast.

 

[Mr.Random]

Spacies, particularly Fox and Falco, are really not as insanely difficult as people make them out to be. In terms of how much tech there is out there, crazy **** like triple waveshine or what have you -- oh yeah, that's not easy to learn. Is it necessary for them to win match ups? Certainly not. If you're a really good player, you can be successful with a spacie. You see "pocket spacies" all the time in Melee (look, they even have a term for it!). Not so much in P:M, since the balance is much better, but they're still there.

And that's another thing. How difficult a character is to play is practically rendered moot at high level. Once you've gotten close to mastering the character, it stops being a weakness. Magneto's a difficult character to use in Marvel 2. That didn't stop really good players to get good with the character and wreck shop with him. If people were just getting into a game I would say picking up harder character would be liability, as you're starting out climbing a much steeper hill than you would with other characters. But let's say *random top player*...Reflex!... started using Fox as one of his subs, and I have no doubt in my mind he will make him work.

Spacie recoveries are not bad because they have two ways to recover. Some characters will kill to have that because they're forever stuck with their Dolphin Slash or what have you.



Imagine my pain as a Kain player (though Jump does help slightly).

Your points are very very strong but the Spacies (especially if you master powershielding) aren't unbeatable in PM and Melee. I've seen a bunch of times where people like Mango get completely outplayed even as Spacies. I'd argue that something that would make a character broken is if they are centered on one move that's extremely hard to intercept. This is why I feel Falco is more broken then Fox in the neutral game because his laser lock down almost every character and his dair is more safe then Fox's nair on shield. I swear it's almost impossible to shield grab Falco's dair

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

Your points are very very strong but the Spacies (especially if you master powershielding) aren't unbeatable in PM and Melee. I've seen a bunch of times where people like Mango get completely outplayed even as Spacies. I'd argue that something that would make a character broken is if they are centered on one move that's extremely hard to intercept. This is why I feel Falco is more broken then Fox in the neutral game because his laser lock down almost every character and his dair is more safe then Fox's nair on shield. I swear it's almost impossible to shield grab Falco's dair

I don't quite think space animals are broken, especially in PM but there is something to be said for their versatility. Bad tech skill day? Bummer, you can't waveshine them across the stage but Fox still has nair, bair, dair, dash dance for usmash, uthrow to uair, and more. In the hands of a good player space animals are very dangerous and while their skill ceiling is high with a lot of room for improvement, the minimum amount of tech skill required to play a solid space animal isn't as much as people think.

See: Cactuar's Fox. He doesn't waveshine, just plays very smart and makes good reads.

 

[Phaiyte]

I remember the days of SC2-3 Ivy/Cervantes. All other choices were made fun of.

 

[Mr.Random]

I remember the days of SC2-3 Ivy/Cervantes. All other choices were made fun of.

I lol'd

 

[Blade-Fox]

You can't really say spacies aren't broken in some form or fashion. You just don't think so because they have years of metagame from Melee where people just had to put up with it.

I believe Jolteon said, "People are just used to dumb spacie ****.."

I love Fox and crew, but if they got hit with an actual nerf bat, I wouldn't be surprised. Just wish people wouldn't have a heart attack when they got a small one. It's not like they went from Melee Falcon to Brawl Falcon. :\

 

[MLGF]

PAL nerfs everyone. It's nothing too substantial.

 

[T-Cash]

I don't quite think space animals are broken, especially in PM but there is something to be said for their versatility. Bad tech skill day? Bummer, you can't waveshine them across the stage but Fox still has nair, bair, dair, dash dance for usmash, uthrow to uair, and more. In the hands of a good player space animals are very dangerous and while their skill ceiling is high with a lot of room for improvement, the minimum amount of tech skill required to play a solid space animal isn't as much as people think.

See: Cactuar's Fox. He doesn't waveshine, just plays very smart and makes good reads.

ill never forget the melee days. I asked cactuar at my first tourney how to win the fox on marth matchup he replies "just kick him" lol and his x button is cut out his controller he is a weird smasher but very good none the less

 

[210stuna]

Turbo Mode

 

[TheNotSoShyGuy]

I don't really consider anything broken unless it is obviously so. I have had the mentality of "If something is overpowered, find a way to make it bearable." I don't think this, but a lot of my friends say that Ike's knockback with his moves is ridiculous. If it is that ridiculous, don't get hit by it and approach differently. Since I don't have a lot of experience with a lot of matchups (meaning I don't play Project M with people at tournies, or friendlies for that matter... which I should), I could theoretically say that Sonic's spin dash has priority and locks me down, and say that it is broken and should be nerfed NOW. I do not, and instead think "This is new, what can I do to prevent this?" and then move on to figure out how to counter it. It all evolves the metagame, With today's advances of being able to patch fighting games, developers could either patch it prematurely, or they could wait a little bit to see if it is as broken as people say, or just not patch it period.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to clear this up right now.

Something is considered broken when it breaks standard game play. It is something that clearly and intentionally circumvents whatever operational rules that game typically abides by. Typically, the ability to break and bend the rules of the game is very powerful, so broken aspects are often take on the aspect of being too powerful by extension. This is not always true though. Some examples might help to clear this up:

- Melee Ice Climbers are broken because wobbling negates DI. In any combo in the game, you can use Directional Influence to affect your opponent's ability to combo you, and it changes their set of options. Wobbling does not let you do this, it does not adhere to that aspect of game play. Wobbling breaks the game by negating DI. Wobbling is a powerful but limited technique, and whether it is too powerful or not is certainly debatable. But it is undeniably broken.
- In Pokemon, Gen 3 Wobuffet is broken. Shadow tag breaks the switching mechanic.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAJUelWRWBs I'm not even going to verbalize why this is broken.
- Going back to smash, melee Falco is broken because he breaks the neutral game. Melee Falco does not adhere to the same rules of super smash bros melee that the other characters do.

tl;dr "broken" negates standard game play. broken =/= overpowered.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAJUelWRWBs I'm not even going to verbalize why this is broken.

Jesus....does Capcom even put effort into games anymore?

 

[Deleted member]

to be honest i think that's a good look for them. if the games are going to be fuck boring at least they can be funny.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

to be honest i think that's a good look for them. if the games are going to be fuck boring at least they can be funny.

They should speed that up so Megaman instantly teleports away and then you just have to wait for the round to end. It'll be just as broken, but at least it'll make sense.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Jesus....does Capcom even put effort into games anymore?

Are you kidding me look how high the stage goes up when you're not even supposed to see that part
that's real effort

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Are you kidding me look how high the stage goes up when you're not even supposed to see that part
that's real effort

That made me laugh. Yeah, they'll put effort into making it look pretty, but it still plays like ****.

 

[MLGF]

That made me laugh. Yeah, they'll put effort into making it look pretty, but it still plays like ****.

Sounds familiar.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Sounds familiar.

Hahaha, the thing that's lost on me there is that I thought the design of the game was absolutely horrible. I wanted to like the idea of a DC Fighter, but it reeked of terrible and typical Netherrealm Studios designs. What is Batman even wearing? He looks really stupid.

 

[MLGF]

It's what all these hardcore and cool gamers play nowadays, along with the hunk of turd that is Mortal Kombat.

Honestly, one of my favorite things about fighters is that everything revolved around the gameplay for most of them. Games like Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, and Marvel never cared for things such as what was mainstream or realistic or anything. They just made a game that played well and extra features obviously came after that. Netherealm relies so heavily on being "Hardcore" with the models in game that they make the games clunky as hell with nothing interesting or enjoyable about them, then they add a lot of content and call it a day.

And know what, these games get GOTY because they're gritty and have a lot of fat on its horrid steak. Fighters always seemed to avoid this certain quality, but Netherealm has brought it to this genre and sells a ton from it. Honestly, it's really depressing.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

The last typical fighting game that came out that I cared about at all was King of Fighters XIII. Now that was a game that played great and looked great. I'll never understand why crap like SFIV and SF vs Tekken are played more than KOF.

It seems Umbreon has broken our train of thought with his perfect examples. :/

 

[Deleted member]

It seems Umbreon has broken our train of thought with his perfect examples. :/

This Cookie Monster gif can make anything look condescending.

 

[Daftatt]

I had fun with skullgirls thought it was a pretty solid fighter, hate SF4, hate MvC3, hate MK9, hate Injustice, still love SC2, still love DOA4.
But P:M is da numba one!

Back on topic, mario's cape can go fuq itself. It's not actually broken.. but yeah, fuq that move.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

This Cookie Monster gif can make anything look condescending.

Oooh, it certainly can.

I wasn't being condescending though, I hope it didn't come across in that manner.

 

[Deleted member]

no i just wanted to show off the gif because it's hilarious.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

no i just wanted to show off the gif because it's hilarious.

You should use that gif at the start of every single post you make explaining something that might be a few paragraphs long. Hell, every post you make that explains something.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

To be fair Injustice was hella fun until people tried to start taking it seriously and noticed all the flaws.

 

[Thor]

Exdeath in Dissidia (and Ultimecia in its sequel)

Unless I was way out of it, I thought they banned Feral Chaos because he was busted as all ****. Like, he 6-4'd the best and 9-1'd the worst. Granted, I never found people to play who were competitive (I'd beat up everyone I knew while playing Jecht at a level handicap of about 15). Also ExDeath was busted yes, but he had a ridiculously high tech skill barrier [perfect Omni-blocks? that timing is so annoying...] - Cloud spamming Meteorain was still a **** to deal with because high guard didn't block it and if I remember right the invulnerability frames of Omni-block weren't always big enough to avoid getting nailed...

That all being completely irrelevant to the topic.

Meta-Knight as a character in Brawl may have been overpowered, but he's not necessarily broken. Meta-Knights who use the Infinite Dimensional Cape are probably broken (invisible approach from across the stage? intangibility on most of the approach? That's pretty broken). And Brawl Meta-Knight in P:M would be broken - those up-air strings would be so stupid on so many levels, not to mention Mach Tornado for 20+% (also his aerials, with their Brawl lag, can have reduced lag, thanks to L-cancel? Yeah they had to nerf him...).

To answer your question, it's probably a combination of utility and breakability - Falco's lasers in Brawl are very useful, but powershielding, good jumping, and keeping close can render it moot. Fox's utilt has high utility for combos and low startup/cooldown but it can be beat out by a variety of moves. Mach Tornado is considered broken by many because of fairly low startup, fairly low ending lag, high utility of the move (can extend combos [off the top KOs?], chase people, run away while protected, approach), and it's hard to deal with - not many moves easily break through it [at least that are quick enough to deal with it at close range] and it's often used when ground attacks and short-hopped aerials aren't an option. This plus its huge degree of safety compared to most moves (you can run away with it, or approach, if you land the final hit of the attack you can fastfall to safety and will almost never be punished) means that it is considered broken by many.

That said, this is all probably a subset of Umbreon's earlier post about breaking the standard rules of gameplay.

 

[sushifreAk]

Captain Falcon's dTaunt.

 

[Mr.Random]

PAL nerfs everyone. It's nothing too substantial.

The PAL nerfs are horrible

Unless I was way out of it, I thought they banned Feral Chaos because he was busted as all ****. Like, he 6-4'd the best and 9-1'd the worst. Granted, I never found people to play who were competitive (I'd beat up everyone I knew while playing Jecht at a level handicap of about 15). Also ExDeath was busted yes, but he had a ridiculously high tech skill barrier [perfect Omni-blocks? that timing is so annoying...] - Cloud spamming Meteorain was still a **** to deal with because high guard didn't block it and if I remember right the invulnerability frames of Omni-block weren't always big enough to avoid getting nailed...

That all being completely irrelevant to the topic.

Meta-Knight as a character in Brawl may have been overpowered, but he's not necessarily broken. Meta-Knights who use the Infinite Dimensional Cape are probably broken (invisible approach from across the stage? intangibility on most of the approach? That's pretty broken). And Brawl Meta-Knight in P:M would be broken - those up-air strings would be so stupid on so many levels, not to mention Mach Tornado for 20+% (also his aerials, with their Brawl lag, can have reduced lag, thanks to L-cancel? Yeah they had to nerf him...).

To answer your question, it's probably a combination of utility and breakability - Falco's lasers in Brawl are very useful, but powershielding, good jumping, and keeping close can render it moot. Fox's utilt has high utility for combos and low startup/cooldown but it can be beat out by a variety of moves. Mach Tornado is considered broken by many because of fairly low startup, fairly low ending lag, high utility of the move (can extend combos [off the top KOs?], chase people, run away while protected, approach), and it's hard to deal with - not many moves easily break through it [at least that are quick enough to deal with it at close range] and it's often used when ground attacks and short-hopped aerials aren't an option. This plus its huge degree of safety compared to most moves (you can run away with it, or approach, if you land the final hit of the attack you can fastfall to safety and will almost never be punished) means that it is considered broken by many.

That said, this is all probably a subset of Umbreon's earlier post about breaking the standard rules of gameplay.

Well we can all agree Brawl is a terrible fighting game and it's an unbalanced mess. It's a great party game though