What in the world are we doing? -- V Canceling

[Kimble]

Why the heck is there no new thread on V-cancelling?! That's a pretty big deal. Why do we let reddit have all the fun? Let's start some discussion! And research! And jokes! Come on guys!

PS
If you missed the v-cancelling discovery :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0je2cwI2eQ&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cXlI3r5J18
http://gfycat.com/FailingOfficialAfricanharrierhawk

 

[Stride]

This is the original /r/ssbm thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3n1kgf/new_global_technique_discovery_vcanceling_reduce/

 

[CptJPuff]

A 3-frame window to reduce 5-10% knockback from a move?

It certainly is amazing how much effort was put and hidden into Melee during that short development cycle of 13 months.

 

[Vestboy_Myst]

@achilles1515 were you planning on making a thread for it?

 

[Sutekh]

I would rename this, I was about to make a thread of my own because I didn't see any mention on the front page

 

[Plunder]

You know I always figured there was something like this....

Since I could remember I would often survive Fox's Upsmash to higher percents than I thought I could. It would be when I was trying to air dodge past or away, but I guess I was late and doing this v-cancel instead.

All this time I figured it was just the weaker hitboxes that were connecting and me getting lucky.

 

[GenNyan]

I would rename this

I would've named it something cooler, like "AirParry"

 

[AirFair]

I don't know if it's the final name. Due to the limited number of states for which it works, it's hard to know when it can be applied, since you forgo teching for a possible v cancel.

 

[vexoskeleton]

I don't know if it's the final name. Due to the limited number of states for which it works, it's hard to know when it can be applied, since you forgo teching for a possible v cancel.

you usually do it when you can't tech anyways is the premise

 

[GenNyan]

I really don't see this tech as being very useful outside of a few specific situations. You basically have to predict that your opponent will throw out a move, since v-cancelling's tight timing makes it almost impossible to do on reaction (Except maybe for a falcon punch or charged Smash attack). If you guess wrong, you'll either accidentally air dodge if you are in a neutral state, or lose the ability to tech if you're in a tumble state. Since it can't be done in hitstun, it won't work during combos, so it'll be even harder to predict whether your opponent will throw out a move. Not to mention the fact that your fingers aren't that good at multitasking, so you won't be able to get as many SDI inputs in or your DI might be slightly off as a result of a v-cancel attempt.

A use I do see for it is to survive a fully charged smash or a falcon punch as a Jigglypuff who missed a rest or any other character who's shield broke. These timings are possible (and comparatively not hard to learn). You can go by sound for the falcon punch, and every fully charged smash takes exactly 60 frames. But be careful because your opponent might not charge it fully as a mixup. If you aren't paying attention, you might airdodge offstage and die where you might have lived if he does this.

EDIT: People can potentially discover option selects utilizing this tech, which would be cool.
EDIT2: A puff couldn't even use this during a missed rest, she's grounded.

 

[Traivlin]

I guess this is meant as a form of consolation prize if you get hit during the first 3 frames of airdodge, which are not intangible, since you also have a 3 frame window to execute it. Too bad that you can't use it while being grounded sadface.

 

[Plunder]

I guess this is meant as a form of consolation prize if you get hit during the first 3 frames of airdodge, which are not intangible, since you also have a 3 frame window to execute it. Too bad that you can't use it while being grounded sadface.

Well you can still CC and attempt to SDI. Also double stick teching and in combination Amsah teching when possible.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I think you should change the title to indicate that this is a thread about V-cancelling. I just made a thread thinking that there was no other threads. Also props to @achilles1515 finding this out

 

[pagedMov]

imo this tech is far too situational (must be in the air, must not be in an attack animation, must not be in hit-stun, etc.) to see any real use in tournament.

 

[Kimble]

imo this tech is far too situational (must be in the air, must not be in an attack animation, must not be in hit-stun, etc.) to see any real use in tournament.

While sure it is definitely situational, I think it will be pretty useful, and will become a tech that really separates the ok and good players from the great ones, kind of link smash di or shield di.

 

[-ACE-]

imo this tech is far too situational (must be in the air, must not be in an attack animation, must not be in hit-stun, etc.) to see any real use in tournament.

Literally every AT was met with a response like this initially.

 

[Delta Chae]

Literally every AT was met with a response like this initially.

While that may be true that was more people being averse to change than anything else. The problem with V-Canceling is that it's a 3 frame window meaning that it cannot be done on reaction and only off of a read, add in the fact that this can only be done while airborne and not in hitstun while the difference it makes in knockback is negligible in most situations and you've got a very situational tech. Granted I believe that it could be very useful in those situations but said situations are so few and far between that I question if it's worth learning V-Canceling at all.

 

[-ACE-]

Of course it can be done off reaction, lol. How do you think people power shield? This is not meta-game changing but it certainly helps. I actually believe there is another mechanic that reduces kb, which may or may not have to do with multiple SDI inputs. I have been hit with a sheik fair while recovering as Ganon at 150% and didn't go very far. I could've landed on stage but I just got faired again. No explanation. I certainly didn't use R/L, just a quarter circle rotation from SDI toward the stage to survival DI (as far as I know).

 

[Plunder]

The same people that say these things about ATs are the same people that don't understand just how good top level players are. You don't even have to do this stuff completely off reaction. Most top players are already prepping tech for the move they think the opponent will most likely throw out, they keep this stuff queued up in the back of their mind as they approach or at any moments where they are vulnerable in lag on air or on the ground.

 

[GenNyan]

While that may be true that was more people being averse to change than anything else. The problem with V-Canceling is that it's a 3 frame window meaning that it cannot be done on reaction and only off of a read

If you're falcon recovering and you're just kinda falling towards the stage, its entirely plausible that it could be done on reaction. It could even let you survive one extra hit.

 

[Delta Chae]

I probably should have been clear. There's a difference between a read and a pure reaction. You do need to react in order to punish a read but you do not need a read in order to react. In addition, it's significantly easier to react to something when you expect it, Falco's lasers are an example of this. No human being could realistically consistently powershield lasers purely off of reaction time alone, they have to know that Falco is about to fire a laser and then react when he does exactly that. Because they expected him to fire a laser it was significantly easier for them to powershield it. Should they not have expected it then it's very unlikely that they could powershield it unless Falco was a sufficient distance away from them to give them time to react to the laser.

I also do not believe this tech to be worthless, just highly situational to the point that you could get by without having to even bother with it. DI and SDI are significantly more important and significantly easier to use.

 

[PalmTrees]

I wonder how many new techs are going to get discovered before the end of the year

 

[SphericalCrusher]

There was a thread from the original announcement. That's where I got info from it. Very interesting stuff. Just like with speedrun games, I love how the communities are so passionate and find new things about these games. That is true DLC!

 

[Mc.Rad]

The same people that say these things about ATs are the same people that don't understand just how good top level players are. You don't even have to do this stuff completely off reaction. Most top players are already prepping tech for the move they think the opponent will most likely throw out, they keep this stuff queued up in the back of their mind as they approach or at any moments where they are vulnerable in lag on air or on the ground.

Yeah, not to mention that many legal stages include platforms like Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium, Dream Land, and Fountain of Dreams; which something like that helps in a stage where fighters move from platform to platform to avoid opponents. It might also make Yoshi's and FOD easier, since I think they do have smaller Blast Zones than FD . Other than that Marth might really benefit from it due to him being able to use his side B to gain more Horizontal distance, making Marth last longer.