What does him so bad?

[bogsnes]

He has disjointed hitbox, combos, random moves, a wonderful f-air, good wavedash, the manhole!

is it the weight, creepy defences, the roll and the fact that he can't l-cancel three of his air moves?

 

[ss118]

Lets look at all those individually:

he has an INSANE amount of hitboxes with INSANE amounts of priority. His Up-tilt cuts through most aerials, and his nair/ Fair is an excellent edgeguard. so is his f-smash to an extent.
He's got a decent amount of combos, but aren't usually 0-death without the use of chainthrowing.
and his wavedash basically replaces his run in terms of speed and distance.

But you have to realize his weaknesses:
The l-canceling part isn't really what bothers me, his biggest pain is his weight and shield. Those two completely ruin him. A top-teir character should be able to be played strong both offensively and defensively. it's true that if you "don't get hit", you'd be the perfect G=W player, but isn't that true for everyone?
the fact that he can l-cancel also leaves him prone to shield-grabs, and he gets ***** brutally by grabs.
and shield grabbing back is hard because of his small shield.

in general, he has all the perfect characteristics for an "all-aggressive" character, but he doesn't have a bit of defense to back it up once the momentum shifts.

 

[Pef7]

Maybe?

He has disjointed hitbox, combos, random moves, a wonderful f-air, good wavedash, the manhole!

is it the weight, creepy defences, the roll and the fact that he can't l-cancel three of his air moves?

I think that is part of it. I think it is also because of the tier list. People have spent so much more time on characters like Fox, Marth, Sheik etc etc that people don't try giving G&W a chance. With less people playing him, less technical skill and combos and everything are developed. People play him even less because there is less to reference and the G&W board only having 5 different posts.

Also G&W because of his height is still missing the reach that some characters have and I'd be that a lot of players have problems counteracting that (or don't want to spend the time doing so).

 

[Madvillain]

the manhole!

lol, I always called it "The Floorboard!"

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I think his shield is definitely a big part of why he's not so great. He gets shieldstabbed way too easily to compete with higher tier characters. His lack of a good aerial backwards reaching attack is a problem sometimes, and on stages like Yoshi's Story, it's pretty much impossible to sweetspot his recovery.

 

[MarsFool!]

lol, I always called it "The Floorboard!"

Lol I call it traps.


His shield, horizontal recovery, and weight make him low tier. GW dies before jiggs does when it comes to fighting Fox.

 

[Madvillain]

The only people that lose with G&W, don't l-cancel <.<

But for real, he is by far the most fun character to play and sometimes I die because I am laughing too hard when I do some of his moves lol

 

[Pef7]

The only people that lose with G&W, don't l-cancel <.<

Wicked true. (No I'm not from Boston)

But for real, he is by far the most fun character to play and sometimes I die because I am laughing too hard when I do some of his moves lol

I agree whole heartedly. Eventually falcon knee and fox/falco shine spiking get old and way too overused. Who ever REALLY expects to be flag juggled, 'chuted, and then a chase off to land a perfect judgment 9 to kill them on the other end of the stage and still recover? Anyone but Falcon (punch...)

OR bacon knock back to a key meteor to a fulfilling 'chute.

ORR scuba heading a kill.

ORRR taunting the same three beeps 3 times in a row to as much as you can before your enemy starts attacking through your shield again. (self-fulfilling as needed)

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

On what makes G&W great, you forgot the wonderful pan spike!
More on the subject however, I think that G&W, Young Link and DK (or is DK mid tier?) are the best low tier characters. He deserves atleast mid tier imo, I think he's just underplayed.

 

[Pef7]

I WISH I could pan spike...for some reason I just can't pull one off...X_X its detrimental to my system really.
Well no character really deserves any tier placing...all characters have their goods/bads and really majority rules. Since people don't give Watch the time, he doesn't get the tier. Then again, that just makes beating people that much better when you destroy them

 

[Madvillain]

Pan spiking is most common (at least for me) when I am edge guarding. I notice it A LOT vs. my buddy's Marth. He always tries to come back with up + b and runs himself into my pan.

 

[Pef7]

Is there anything specific about the pan over the flaming stick or manhole or chair? Or is it just for looks?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

DK is low tier.

 

[Deadandlivin]

Mr. Game have one weakness and that's his shield generally.
There are some small things like laggy air attacks n' such but you usually can work around those.

I mean, his shield is utter crap! He together with donkey has the worse shield in the game!
Even when it's fully loaded you can see there heads, feed and hands sticking out of the shield which is very easy to sweetspot.
Still game and watch rocks! Especially when you judge them with the lucky nr.9!

 

[elvenarrow3000]

He's also really light... that's a weakness.

And his grab range sucks. And he has a bad roll.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I WISH I could pan spike...for some reason I just can't pull one off...X_X its detrimental to my system really.

The timing is weird and hard to get used to because the pan sort of cancels your jump. So you have to be above them when you do the attack.
BTW on second thought nair is generally better to kill people off stage (except fast fallers on low percentages). However, the pan spike is fantastic for comedy purposes, I love doing it because people never see it coming and since it's not really considered a serious strategy it makes people extra frustrated when they die from it

 

[ss118]

There's always a better alternative to a pan spike. I have rarely ever used that move, if only to hit opponents stalling off the stage(constant ledgehoppers are done in better by the f-tilt). Phantasm's are better off down tilted, and is a better edgeguard in general. I can't think of any situation that the pan would be more useful than anything else

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, usually you can use the fair/nair for people way out, the dair for sweetspotters and the dtilt for everyone else. Keep in mind the pan causes you to fastfall, so you have to do it a little bit above them.

 

[ss118]

but what makes me scratch my head is WHY you would pan-spike? The LOL factor?
.....
awww, who am i kidding! That's good enough

 

[Pef7]

He's also really light... that's a weakness.

And his grab range sucks. And he has a bad roll.

You can kind of work around being light if you are fast and spontaneous enough.

Again if you are quick enough you don't need to worry as much with grabbing...and when you do have them grabbed, they won't know where you are tossing them.

Wavedashing is too far superior with G&W to roll. It's pointless to the point of you should just wavedash back or wavedash crouch towards them (for a mindgame).

Kudos to me for seeing a second page.
Well pretty much the LOL factor. I mean it just feels so compliment worthy when you destroy someone with a G&W. It feels even more fulfilling when you either 9 them, or kill them in some strange fashion that they wouldn't see coming...for example a pan. Or sending them tumbling at the bottom of the screen due to your up-B .

 

[ss118]

I think that if ur playing to win, the pan isn't the best way to go. I would go on, but then I feel it would just be a repeat of my last post.

 

[Pef7]

Ok I'll give you that. The 'chute and box/credit card/whatever you call it are better choices.