What counts as good and bad frame data?

[Rango the Mercenary]

I notice people throwing the term around to describe when a character is good or bad in SSB4. Since it's still a relatively new thing for me, I'm wondering what numbers count as good and bad for certain characters and why they're considered that.

 

[Raijinken]

Faster is better, slower isn't, at the basest level.

Sometimes it gets blurry a bit with lingering hitboxes (i.e. would it be better to act faster or have a hitbox that lasts longer?), but in essence, think of how quick Sheik's fair starts up and ends, versus how long it takes to use Falcon Punch.

There are other things that go into frame data (interruptible frames, autocancel, etc), but it's essentially about speed. Who you can be faster than on the attack, or safer than on the defense.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Use Dedede.

There you go. Bad frame data.

Edit:Oh, and Sheik counts as good, I don't think any of her moves are laggy.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Although you can look at the numbers themselves, you can honestly feel when a move has bad frame data. For example, Robin's grab feels really slow, and it turns out that it actually is slow. Meanwhile, Captain Falcon's grab feels really fast, and it turns out that it actually is fast.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Just by seeing the move itself or using it you can feel how it is the frame data: the slower, the worse; the faster, the better.
...
I wanted to do a thread about it but I'm too lazy. I just want to ask something; how do people discover the number data of Frames? Slowing down, seeing game files, etc.?

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Generally, moves that create hitboxes in less then 10 frames on activation have 'good' frame data. They can be used to more easily punish things such as landing lag on reaction rather than on prediction.

One could also consider a move's ranking among similar moves among all characters. A frame 2-3 jab is really good whereas a frame 8 jab is bad, but a frame 8 smash attack is great whereas one over 15 frames is pretty slow.

I suggest you find a google doc with all character's frame data. Compare and contrast different character's different moves and their ranking among others. Hypothesize and make observations on how the frame data relates to both broad and specific character matchups.

 

[Raijinken]

Just by seeing the move itself or using it you can feel how it is the frame data: the slower, the worse; the faster, the better.
...
I wanted to do a thread about it but I'm too lazy. I just want to ask something; how do people discover the number data of Frames? Slowing down, seeing game files, etc.?

A frame is 1/60 of a second (hence the game running at "60 frames per second") in Smash, so with any recording device that captures at least that fast, you can advance frame by frame (or even slower) to check things out.

Of course, people like Dantarion also do enough data mining to just take the numbers straight from the game. It takes a bit of experimentation to identify each data segment for what it represents, but after that it gets a lot easier.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

So basically it comes down to startup and endlag?

I tend to look at hitboxes. Like, Captain Falcon's Dair goes down and a bit around him, and almost assures a spike. Ike's Dair starts up around the same frame, but it has a smaller hitbox and and an even smaller sweetspot. On top of that, it's much more risky given Ike's recovery.

 

[san.]

Startup
Total Frames
Difference between last hitbox and total frames

Aerials have these extra few things:
Landing lag
Difference between last hitbox and autocancel frames
If the autocancel frames activate before the end of a short hop
If the autocancel frames active before the end of a short hop + fast fall

Then there are hitboxes:
Reach
Disjoint of hitbox
movement of hurtbox before hitbox comes out (does your limb extend before hitting someone or right when the hitbox comes out)
Duration of hitbox
Arc of hitbox - Gaps are created depending on the location and arc of the hitbox
Hurtbox coverage

Hitbox properties:
Hitlag modifiers
"Trample" "Transcendence" etc.
Extra shield damage
General reward of the attack

Which move it is:
If your jab is frame 7, that sucks and you have a gap in your gameplan.
If your up smash is frame 7, that's awesome and you have a lot more options available to you.

Special properties- Not really frame-data related outside of jump cancellable, but good to have.
If it's a move that can be jump cancelled (ex. upB, upSmash)
If it's a move that can be shield cancelled
If it's a move that can be B-reversed
If it's a move that can be done out of initial dash (ex. side B, dash attack)
If it shifts your momentum
If your momentum is carried with the attack on the ground (ex. standing grab, perfect pivot attacks)
Any other special property or cancel, sliding off platform, etc.