What characters need obvious nerfs/buffs?

[Will-O-Wisp]

My friends and I were talking about this earlier this week. However, during our discussion, we couldn't agree on an extensive list, perhaps because we all play different characters. It's already been a couple months since 3.02's release and we're starting to see character metagames being developed, and there are definitely characters that consistently place higher in others in tourneys. Despite our disagreements, my friends and I did come up with 3 for nerfs and 2 for buffs.

Nerfs
1.Lucas
2.Mewtwo
3.Mario

Buffs
1. Jiggs
2. Toon Link

This is not anything like a tier list, it's just the characters we thought obviously needed nerfs and buffs in no specific order. In my opinion I think the nerf list could be a lot longer, but it's just my opinion.

So what characters do you think need nerfs/buffs?

 

[Zujx]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you as are entitled to your own opinion
IMO
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Like you and your friends said character metagames are starting to become more developed but, currently its constantly evolving. I think they're are almost no OBVIOUS contenders for being nerfed with that in mind.

Mario is one of the more balanced characters of the cast he's very well rounded at he's good at everything he was designed to be good at but, at a higher level of play he has a variety of exploitable weaknesses and a handful of non-favorable MUs
His pros are about equal to his cons which makes him in my mind seem pretty balanced.

Lucas is also fine he's a highly technical character that takes a lot of skill to be good at. He's definitely higher tier but, nothing is wrong with that much even when played by a seasoned Lucas player he's completely beatable and I've never felt really any match up I've played against him was entirely unfair.

Mewtwo is a grey area for me. One thing that i think should be nerfed obviously for him is his obnoxious ledge stalling move. Other than that I haven't really had any problems with him. Than again I've never fought a "Emukiller" or a "mew2king". Mewtwos around me are decent at best so, it's really hard for more to give an accurate opinion. I think as the mewtwo meta evolves will see if players are able to come up with answers to some of the more difficult to deal with mewtwo strats until that I really can't say anything besides ledge stalling for sure needs to be nerfed.
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The topic of buffs I can definitely agree with you on though

Jigglypuff is going to need some kind of buff. She's exactly how she was in melee but, that is kind of the overall problem. With all the buffs to other melee characters and new MU (with much better recoveries) she really can't handle the P:M meta for the most part in her current state.

Toon link i can also agree on needs some changes. He's decent but, I feel like regular link does everything he can do better (which for those of you who played brawl this is a pretty strange flip-flop lol). I feel that he needs more defining traits that separate him from link. Something like being way faster than link but, having much weaker damage. I don't know that was just a random idea probably a bad one but, just something unique. That's just my opinion though.

The IC's definitely needs some tweaks as well in my opinion but not really buffs. I would just love for a lot of the technical problems with them to be fixed so, we can really discover the new hybrid IC meta.

I'm looking at the roster and glancing through it right now, no one really jumps out to me as an obvious problem just a lot of little tweaks are needed here and there. Keep in mind i'm extremely biased sometimes I really love this game.

 

[Celestis]

Obvious buffs and nerfs? I can't think of any that obvious.
The only nerf I could really think of is Ness' PK fire, and that's just cause my casual friends won't shut up about it They don't know SDI. So that's just a personal nerf.

Maybe remove the invincibility frames from Zelda neutral B? Or not as many. I mean if Fox and Falco can't have theirs, why should she.
Thats really the only problems I might have.

 

[Empyrean]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/

All discussion of this nature belongs in this thread. Now if only I had the mod tag, then this post would be meaningful..

 

[ECHOnce]

I'm not going to pretend that I have a good idea of which characters are/seem OP in terms of high-level play. But having played in various tournaments at (I'd say, based on placement) mid-level play, I'm realizing that several characters have movesets that aren't necessarily OP in terms of how they were originally intended to be used, but in terms of how they're exploited. In that respect, they can still be played skillfully at any skill level (not sure if I'd be right on this, but imo the characters are much more balanced at higher level play). But at low/mid-level play, much of their strengths are exploited to the point at which many other players of similar or higher skill (both in terms of using mindgames/reads and tech skill) are overwhelmed, since they have to take bigger risks for smaller rewards. This will prob always exist to some extent in games...but things like Ivysaur's long-disjoints / multi-hit / minimal endlag moveset, or a few individual moves like Mario's Neutral-B or Squirtle's Side-B, all offer very simple low-risk high-reward strategies (sometimes just spamming), that can hurt progress of the given character's metagame, the skill gap from low/mid-level play to high-level play for those characters, and the player's improvement. As I said, I'm sure we all know there'll always be some moves/movesets attributed to such, but minimizing the degree to which these can be exploited (easily accessible and hard-to-escape kill moves/combos at low %s / minimal endlag on mostly disjointed moveset / free armor on various quick approaches / others I can't think of) by making them somehow more easily punishable could be helpful, although this would obviously have to be done while not acting as too much of a detriment to the characters and their metagame at high-level play.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Buff IC, puff, maybe rob, possibly ness? Olimar could use a helping hand as well.

 

[Shadic]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/

All discussion of this nature belongs in this thread. Now if only I had the mod tag, then this post would be meaningful..

This. Take it here, please.