What characters excel at touring stages as opposed to static stages?

[[Deuce]]

I've seen this topic brought up several times as an argumentative point for stage inclusiveness, we might as well flesh it out so that it has more ground.

A couple of points that I've read is that characters with increased aerial mobility (jump height, air speed) do better here, and characters with higher run speed aren't as potent as they are on a flat static stage such as FD or BF, due to walls and obstacles.

Stage dynamism prevents the use of camping strats for extended periods.

What else?

 

[Pazx]

The short answer is that if characters like touring stages they don't like them simply because they tour. Your initial assumptions are mostly correct but they have far less of an impact than say Delfino's blast zones.

 

[outfoxd]

The short answer is that if characters like touring stages they don't like them simply because they tour. Your initial assumptions are mostly correct but they have far less of an impact than say Delfino's blast zones.

Yeah. As Duck Hunt i hate the tightness and projectile screwing nature of Siege but love the low ceiling transitions and opportunity for sharking from Delfino.

 

[Raijinken]

Typically, as Pazx said, it's because they like several of the stops more than other stages. Alternately, they're useful as counter-picks against certain characters or strategies. Villager's sapling (and planking, and playstyle in general) becomes far less viable on transforming stages which cause the sapling to change places or vanish altogether, and (in Delfino) change the ledges or remove them entirely for certain forms.

Also, from some standpoints, a dynamic stage is statistically more likely to be balanced between any given matchup than a relatively static stage. Take Smashville vs Town and City. Town and City is hardly what anyone would really call a touring stage, but it has three distinct forms that offer vastly different options. It has a FD mode, a Battlefield-oid-mode, and a Stadium-oid mode. If you poll experienced players about those stages, odds are good you can find some strong preferences for one or another (as a Robin player, I hate FD, am kinda neutral about Stadium, and like Battlefield). That sort of dynamic setting-shift can allow what would otherwise be a biased stage for a matchup to be at least temporarily neutral or biased in the opposite direction, creating a more even field on average. Of course, that assumes even distributions of benefit from an equally distributed number of forms.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

To answer you directly, I believe the following characters benefit in some way from touring stages in general:

-Rosalina: The transformations have a non-trivial chance to come at such times as to save Luma, and any transformation with time-wasting potential allows Rosalina to more easily stall out her Luma timer. These are pros for her, and there aren't really direct cons to transforming stages for her.

-Mr. Game & Watch: This character can attack while mobile better than almost anyone else due to his large disjoints, his strong air control, and the nature of his up special. However, he often struggles to stay safe against a shield or to approach a well-entrenched defensive position. A stage that transforms and thus continually forces people to move is uniquely good for him.

-Sonic: Often in smash, taking the strongest position first is important. Transforming stages offer this exchange many more times than static stages, and Sonic is uniquely good at taking that position first. Additionally, walk-offs in a competitive sense are only found on transforming stages, and Sonic has probably the best walk-off game in the cast.

In principle anyone with high mobility or reasons to want to wait a moment likes transformation.

On the flip side, the only archetype that really dislikes transformation is the one that wants to "set up shop". This amounts to the defensive characters who take time to set up a powerful field of garbage that is very tough to get past. Transformation can easily disrupt that and give the opponent a relatively easy approach. Obvious examples here would be Villager, Pac-Man, and Duck Hunt.

Note that character specific concerns often override general feelings about transformations. Mr. Game & Watch likes transformation in the abstract but prefers stages that emphasize vertical gameplay as well so even though it transforms he will probably not favor Wuhu Island. Duck Hunt would prefer to have a place to always set up shop, but Halberd gives him additional ammo with the hazards so it's going to be a nice stage for him regardless. This is similar to how, while both Final Destination and Battlefield are static stages, any particular character may feel very differently about both of them.

 

[LightLV]

Anyone who's fast, with good move recovery, who can maneuver well and use that to their advantage.

Basically, everyone who's already good. Who doesn't rely on camping.

 

[[Deuce]]

stuff

I thought characters like sonic and little mac, who prefer large flat surfaces didnt like touring stages?

For example one of the hallmarks of sonic is to repeatedly spin dash as an approach/bait, but when there are gaps/short walls on the transformations sonic isnt able to make use of the entire stage as easily.

 

[Raijinken]

I thought characters like sonic and little mac, who prefer large flat surfaces didnt like touring stages?

For example one of the hallmarks of sonic is to repeatedly spin dash as an approach/bait, but when there are gaps/short walls on the transformations sonic isnt able to make use of the entire stage as easily.

That depends more on the specific stage or phase than the touring property itself. Anyways, the sole advantage I can see for Little Mac on any touring stage is that Delfino gets low ceilings (easy kill if you can land the hit) and several essentially flat walkoff forms.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That depends more on the specific stage or phase than the touring property itself. Anyways, the sole advantage I can see for Little Mac on any touring stage is that Delfino gets low ceilings (easy kill if you can land the hit) and several essentially flat walkoff forms.

Worth noting that every transforming stage has several walkoff forms, not just Delfino. (Unless you count T&C/Halberd in this group.)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I thought characters like sonic and little mac, who prefer large flat surfaces didnt like touring stages?

For example one of the hallmarks of sonic is to repeatedly spin dash as an approach/bait, but when there are gaps/short walls on the transformations sonic isnt able to make use of the entire stage as easily.

Sonic's best stage is Wuhu Island since it has both the large flat surface and the touring attributes, but even if we ignore that one, I think touring stages are good for Sonic on average. Sure FD is a really good Sonic stage as is Duck Hunt, but then again, BF is by far the worst Sonic stage and he's pretty awful at Smashville too with T&C being about as good as a typical transforming stage for him (I'd say T&C is about equal to Skyloft and Halberd for Sonic but worse than Castle Siege and Delfino). In general, while short walls aren't Sonic's favorite stage feature, he can pretty easily stall out transformations that don't go his way while really capitalizing on good ones. None of the transforming stages are too platform polluted (especially not with low platforms which Sonic *really* hates), and walk-offs are extremely pro-Sonic. If the ceiling ever gets low, Sonic has some really dirty juggle set-ups as well.

As per Mac, he's kinda funny. His first stage preference is absolutely hating certain "automatic loss" stages that have permanent geographies that just fundamentally defeat his basic gameplan. Out of the EVO stages you have Duck Hunt and Smashville, and more liberal stage lists add Kongo Jungle 64 and arguably Dreamland 64 (the latter needs more exploration for Mac, but early signs aren't good). Platforms that in any way assist stall are just toxic for Mac (like people don't even get it; Smashville is so ridiculously unfair for Mac), and in this way, transformers are good since none of the platforms are permanent. Obviously FD is by far Mac's best stage, and honestly he probably likes T&C more than any transformer, but the transformers are probably similar value propositions to Battlefield and Lylat for Mac. I wouldn't really list Mac as a pro-transforming stage character, but he doesn't get screwed by them which is the critical thing since for Mac it's all about not being screwed by the stage (note that replacing Halberd with Dreamland in a 9 stage list is extremely brutal to Mac's tier position since Mac can no longer ban every awful stage for him). This also presumes customs on since Mac really needs Grounding Blow to deal with general platform camp on at least Battlefield; after seeing it in action, I'm truly mind-blown that people think Mac has bad customs as opposed to him being one of the most custom reliant characters in the game. If customs are off, you can ignore this entire paragraph since Mac is just plain a non-viable character in that scenario and hence his stage preferences are irrelevant.

 

[Ghostbone]

Characters with terrible recoveries, since half the time those stages are walk-offs, and you don't have to recover while the stage lowers into a different transition. (e.g. Ness and Little Mac)

Characters who love to run away/create lots of space (Sonic is a good example)

Characters who have terrible neutral games and rely on the constant transitioning to force other character's into disadvantaged states.

And for Delfino, character's who can reliably kill you at 0-30 off the top blastzone.

When I say terrible I mean relative to the other character.

 

[Pazx]

Sonic's best stage is Wuhu Island since it has both the large flat surface and the touring attributes, but even if we ignore that one, I think touring stages are good for Sonic on average. Sure FD is a really good Sonic stage as is Duck Hunt, but then again, BF is by far the worst Sonic stage and he's pretty awful at Smashville too with T&C being about as good as a typical transforming stage for him (I'd say T&C is about equal to Skyloft and Halberd for Sonic but worse than Castle Siege and Delfino). In general, while short walls aren't Sonic's favorite stage feature, he can pretty easily stall out transformations that don't go his way while really capitalizing on good ones. None of the transforming stages are too platform polluted (especially not with low platforms which Sonic *really* hates), and walk-offs are extremely pro-Sonic. If the ceiling ever gets low, Sonic has some really dirty juggle set-ups as well.

As per Mac, he's kinda funny. His first stage preference is absolutely hating certain "automatic loss" stages that have permanent geographies that just fundamentally defeat his basic gameplan. Out of the EVO stages you have Duck Hunt and Smashville, and more liberal stage lists add Kongo Jungle 64 and arguably Dreamland 64 (the latter needs more exploration for Mac, but early signs aren't good). Platforms that in any way assist stall are just toxic for Mac (like people don't even get it; Smashville is so ridiculously unfair for Mac), and in this way, transformers are good since none of the platforms are permanent. Obviously FD is by far Mac's best stage, and honestly he probably likes T&C more than any transformer, but the transformers are probably similar value propositions to Battlefield and Lylat for Mac. I wouldn't really list Mac as a pro-transforming stage character, but he doesn't get screwed by them which is the critical thing since for Mac it's all about not being screwed by the stage (note that replacing Halberd with Dreamland in a 9 stage list is extremely brutal to Mac's tier position since Mac can no longer ban every awful stage for him). This also presumes customs on since Mac really needs Grounding Blow to deal with general platform camp on at least Battlefield; after seeing it in action, I'm truly mind-blown that people think Mac has bad customs as opposed to him being one of the most custom reliant characters in the game. If customs are off, you can ignore this entire paragraph since Mac is just plain a non-viable character in that scenario and hence his stage preferences are irrelevant.

If Smashville's platform assists stalling shouldn't Sonic love the stage? I really think SV would be in the conversation for my second or third ban against a campy Sonic player.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If Smashville's platform assists stalling shouldn't Sonic love the stage? I really think SV would be in the conversation for my second or third ban against a campy Sonic player.

Sonic is great at running the clock, but you have to think about how he does it and how he deals with being behind. Sonic is quite poor at approaching through the air; if he's losing, a lot of characters can just sit on that platform and time him out effectively. On the other hand, if Sonic is up, what good does that platform really do him? It's not like his normals control meaningful space; he just wants to keep running away, and Smashville's structure really does little to assist in that versus what every other stage offers. Smashville is great for stalling as in stalling "in place"; it doesn't help the run-away style of stall. If anything, the platform to its side just makes it easier to corner Sonic if he chooses to go on it. I have two local Sonics; one is smart enough to always ban Smashville against me, and the other still sometimes stumbles into this awful mess for Sonic which tends to lead him to hilarious looking defeats as I get the lead and start timing him out to force him to make awful approaches. I really think this is Sonic's 2nd worst stage (after Battlefield); it just does nothing but help his opponent while offering him pretty much nothing.

All around I still just don't get the Smashville love fest I see all of the time. Other than having been popular in Brawl, what's even so good about this stage?

 

[Raijinken]

Worth noting that every transforming stage has several walkoff forms, not just Delfino. (Unless you count T&C/Halberd in this group.)

Right. But Delfino just seems to have the most going for Mac out of them.

Wuhu has a lot of pitfalls throughout, including on one of its walkoff forms. Skyloft may not be that bad (haven't played much Mac there), but I have a hard time imagining that much platforming being manageable for Mac. Castle Siege may be closer to "ideal" for him as far as touring goes, but the walkoff stage still has high platforms that he struggles against.

All around I still just don't get the Smashville love fest I see all of the time. Other than having been popular in Brawl, what's even so good about this stage?

Well, Sheik's popular, and it's her best stage, so.... coincidence?

 

[Piford]

Sonic is great at running the clock, but you have to think about how he does it and how he deals with being behind. Sonic is quite poor at approaching through the air; if he's losing, a lot of characters can just sit on that platform and time him out effectively. On the other hand, if Sonic is up, what good does that platform really do him? It's not like his normals control meaningful space; he just wants to keep running away, and Smashville's structure really does little to assist in that versus what every other stage offers. Smashville is great for stalling as in stalling "in place"; it doesn't help the run-away style of stall. If anything, the platform to its side just makes it easier to corner Sonic if he chooses to go on it. I have two local Sonics; one is smart enough to always ban Smashville against me, and the other still sometimes stumbles into this awful mess for Sonic which tends to lead him to hilarious looking defeats as I get the lead and start timing him out to force him to make awful approaches. I really think this is Sonic's 2nd worst stage (after Battlefield); it just does nothing but help his opponent while offering him pretty much nothing.

All around I still just don't get the Smashville love fest I see all of the time. Other than having been popular in Brawl, what's even so good about this stage?

It's because deep down people want to have FD as the only legal stage, but they don't want to follow the stereotype of "FD only," so they chose Smashville since all it does is add a moving platform that people can use to camp off stage, recover to, and chain attacks. (Note: This probably isn't the actual reason for most people; it's probably because they play it so often they are comfortable with it. This is probably true for some people and does have some effect on them liking the stage.)

 

[LightLV]

FD is far from the optimal stage for all characters, it's a flat-out counterpick to some. This is why the whole Omega and For Glory concept is so dumb from a competitive perspective. It's as if Sakurai listened to the old "All fox, Final Destination, no items" joke and took it literally. Fox/Falco got grabbed once and comboed to death on FD in Melee. it was their worst stage.

Nothing much changed here, some characters benefit heavily with no platforms, other benefit with platforms, smashville's non-standard platform spacing makes for a decent counterpick, ect ect.

Nobody wants FD to be the only legal stage, that is completely silly.

 

[Ansou]

Nobody wants FD to be the only legal stage, that is completely silly.

For Glory people?

Anyway, are touring stages really that good for characters with bad recovery? I've always felt that it was kind of the opposite as it requires them to always have stage control in order to not get screwed when the stage transforms...