What are King Dedede's primary weaknesses?

[DaPlatinumTrim]

Seriously. That fix alone would be a significant buff for D3.

I'm not even sure why it was never proper. His Bair starts below him yet no hitbox there? Fair looks like a half circle aerial but it isn't for some odd reason and the amount of end lag it has is unwarranted.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

If you want to know how bad of frame data D3 has, just try and fight a defensive Captain Falcon. You know the one, the ones that constantly dash forward and jump-salto backward. The moment your D3 does his jab or Ftilt, Falcon goes is for the grab, Dthrow and juggle into knee, and there's little if anything D3 can do about that.

I'm up to the point where ZZS are becoming predictable to me in every situation that they're becoming relatively easy, but defensive C. Falcon are a definitive No-No to me.

D3's weaknesses become all immediately apparent in this MU: Bad frame data, no kill confirms that don't rely on punishing mistakes, and difficulty getting in. Thank Sakurai for giving Ike and DK a few speedy moves, giving ROB more defensive, harassing missiles, giving DK and Bowser more super armor moves and shield-breaking moves with less upstart and cooldown, and literally every character a spike (or multiple) that takes much less skill and perfection to perform.

My personal vendetta is against Yoshi's stupid safe, stupid looking, stupid hard to tech, combo-into-a-kill-move Sneeze-Meteor. It's existence is an insult to D3's skill-requirement. Seriously, Big-Nose's sneeze has a meteor, but downward hammer smash doesn't?

Downward hammer smash? Do you mean down air? If so it does have a spiking hit box you have to hit them in the middle of the hammer.

 

[Silly Symphony]

I just wanna say, good lord, can they please make the hitboxes for forward air and back air match the animation? It's maddening how many times those moves miss the opponent when they shouldn't.

You mean like this?
http://i.imgur.com/QX7fFeM.png

 

[Silly Symphony]

Downward hammer smash? Do you mean down air? If so it does have a spiking hit box you have to hit them in the middle of the hammer.

I was actually comparing Yoshi's F-air (which looks like a sneeze) to D3's F-air.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

I was actually comparing Yoshi's F-air (which looks like a sneeze) to D3's F-air.

Oh yeah I guess dedede's fair should spike. But it'd have to be a weak spike or else it would be kind of OP because of how fast it comes out

 

[Soul Train]

Oh yeah I guess dedede's fair should spike. But it'd have to be a weak spike or else it would be kind of OP because of how fast it comes out

Fast? Nothing about D3 is fast. Fair comes out on frame 13-15, does 12%, and has horrendous endlag. Many enemies can actually get hit and punish D3 before he finishes recovering. On the other hand, Yoshi's Fair is completely safe, spikes, and does 15%. ...yeah. Even if Sakurai changed it so D3's Fair spiked, the move wouldn't even be near the utility of Yoshi's Fair, doing less damage for wayyy more risk. It wouldn't be OP, a spiking Fair wouldn't even be on par.

I guess you might say it's not...fair.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Fast? Nothing about D3 is fast. Fair comes out on frame 13-15, does 12%, and has horrendous endlag. Many enemies can actually get hit and punish D3 before he finishes recovering. On the other hand, Yoshi's Fair is completely safe, spikes, and does 15%. ...yeah. Even if Sakurai changed it so D3's Fair spiked, the move wouldn't even be near the utility of Yoshi's Fair, doing less damage for wayyy more risk. It wouldn't be OP, a spiking Fair wouldn't even be on par.

I guess you might say it's not...fair.

Nice . Well I guess I just thought it came out quickly cuz all his other attacks come out slow. kind of like how to me dedede seems fast cuz his feet move fast. Also did you make the video displaying how good dedede's taunts were? Cuz I remember watching that video a while ago trying to git gud at dedede and he had the same profile pic as you

 

[Soul Train]

Nice . Well I guess I just thought it came out quickly cuz all his other attacks come out slow. kind of like how to me dedede seems fast cuz his feet move fast. Also did you make the video displaying how good dedede's taunts were? Cuz I remember watching that video a while ago trying to git gud at dedede and he had the same profile pic as you

Yes those are my videos. And lulz at D3's feet moving fast. He's one of the slowest in the game.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Yes those are my videos. And lulz at D3's feet moving fast. He's one of the slowest in the game.

I know he's slow but to me it seems he's kind of far cuz of his running animation

 

[Soul Train]

Question to everyone - what videos/matches do you feel especially highlight D3's weaknesses? I've been pouring through some match footage towards making a next video, and I would reaaaally appreciate anything that comes to your mind.

 

[Deleted member]

Question to everyone - what videos/matches do you feel especially highlight D3's weaknesses? I've been pouring through some match footage towards making a next video, and I would reaaaally appreciate anything that comes to your mind.

These matches, I feel.

 

[Axel311]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPDpMwWS4g4 - Shows how crippling having such a large hurtbox is.

 

[Silly Symphony]

Having a large hurtbox on it's own isn't the problem. It's the combination of a large hurtbox with small (or non-existent) hitboxes that come out later than other characters and last only a few frames. With the exception of nair, D3 has no lingering hitboxes and even then the hitbox is small than his hurtbox at the end.

Just compare to Ness, his hitboxes are just as big, but they come out faster, they last so much longer and they protect his whole body.

Or how about Charizard? Big hurtbox, but then he also has big hitboxes that cover him nicely and pretty far away. Oh, and Charizard enjoys a lovely standard super-armor DownB that isn't gimmicky with a massive hitbox and a speedy SideB that catches and kills opponents off-guard. Oh, and easy of shield-breaking.

One last thing, have a look at all of D3's moves. Now take away all moves that don't kill until about 150% at the edge on a medium weighted character. Now take away every move that is a hard read, can easily be avoided or can be seen from a mile away. Which moves do you have left? I can only think of three, one is reactionary, the second has faulty hitboxes and a bit of landing lag if used outside of shorthop and the third has a short range and a massive sourspot.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I think its his kill ability...is pretty low compared to all other heavies....Bowser & Ganon kill way earlier so do DK, Charizard & Ike.

Its something that bothers me about DDD his survive ability is insane he builds up a insane ammount if rage to were you can finish them of with say almost anything...a gordo....UPAir or BAir or DSmash.

Thing is about DDD he has 3 ultra strong killing moves but they are all not practical moves expecially when facing a good opponent lets have a look at them.

1. FSmash ..too Slow
2. Jet Hammer...(no explanation)
3. Dash Attack (the most likely you will hit this one imo)

I think DDD needs a knockback buff on Dsmash, UPAir, UPSmash?

Something like that...
Also who do you guys think are the top 3 heavies?

 

[Dark Phazon]

If you want to know how bad of frame data D3 has, just try and fight a defensive Captain Falcon. You know the one, the ones that constantly dash forward and jump-salto backward. The moment your D3 does his jab or Ftilt, Falcon goes is for the grab, Dthrow and juggle into knee, and there's little if anything D3 can do about that.

I'm up to the point where ZZS are becoming predictable to me in every situation that they're becoming relatively easy, but defensive C. Falcon are a definitive No-No to me.

D3's weaknesses become all immediately apparent in this MU: Bad frame data, no kill confirms that don't rely on punishing mistakes, and difficulty getting in. Thank Sakurai for giving Ike and DK a few speedy moves, giving ROB more defensive, harassing missiles, giving DK and Bowser more super armor moves and shield-breaking moves with less upstart and cooldown, and literally every character a spike (or multiple) that takes much less skill and perfection to perform.

My personal vendetta is against Yoshi's stupid safe, stupid looking, stupid hard to tech, combo-into-a-kill-move Sneeze-Meteor. It's existence is an insult to D3's skill-requirement. Seriously, Big-Nose's sneeze has a meteor, but downward hammer smash doesn't?

I just faced a falcon just now of For Glory named "Cheap" and he played litreally 100% how you mentioned and he beats me 3 times when i was DDD & Ganon...i almost beat him easily with Bowser but he started playing way to defensive then i like...

I hate picking bowser i know i can always get the job done with him it feels like a cheap way out...

I main Ganon & DDD.

all heavies need a Bowser treatment...i feel sorry for DK the most though...hes got it the worse by far....its such a shame he is such a cool funny awsome fun character too.

 

[williamsga555]

Dedede's lack of a quick, early-killing move is unfortunate, yeah. It'd be one thing if he had a reliable kill confirm, but we've no such luck there.

 

[Deleted member]

Dedede's lack of a quick, early-killing move is unfortunate, yeah. It'd be one thing if he had a reliable kill confirm, but we've no such luck there.

I feel like up tilt gaining a damage and knockback buff along with decreased startup and cooldown would give him a quick and meaty kill move that he needs sorely, especially since how that's the move functioned in Brawl. Comboing move at low percents, kill move at high percents. Ftilt is good for spacing as is, but I feel like it needs to be safer on shield and needs a knockback buff. , , , and all have killing forward tilts. Why can't Dedede when he has a giant and heavy as hell hammer for Adeline's sake? Up smash seriously needs to be faster and kill earlier. That move is so useless as it is right now it's ridiculous.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I feel like up tilt gaining a damage and knockback buff along with decreased startup and cooldown would give him a quick and meaty kill move that he needs sorely, especially since how that's the move functioned in Brawl. Comboing move at low percents, kill move at high percents. Ftilt is good for spacing as is, but I feel like it needs to be safer on shield and needs a knockback buff. , , , and all have killing forward tilts. Why can't Dedede when he has a giant and heavy as hell hammer for Adeline's sake? Up smash seriously needs to be faster and kill earlier. That move is so useless as it is right now it's ridiculous.

Couldnt agree more with Uptilt and expecially UpSmash.

Im curious whats your opnion on who are the Top 3 Heavies?

 

[Soul Train]

Im curious whats your opnion on who are the Top 3 Heavies?

1. D
2. D
3. D

 

[Silly Symphony]

I said it before, I'll say it again. D3 needs:
a) Super-armor dash-attack (to get in)
b) Gordo's that do more shield-damage and ignore projectiles (like in Kirby games) so they can no longer be camped out
c) DownB Jet Hammer that is faster and has shield-breaking qualities (it's knockback is lower than Fsmash anyway)
d) Larger hitboxes (read fixed hitboxes) on his hammers and get rid of sourspot on Dair
e) Better frames on Nair and Ftilt that can actually keep enemies away instead of kindly inviting them to grab
f) Something with knockback that isn't a super-slow smash attack, please
g) Bonus: a kill-setup

 

[Deleted member]

Couldnt agree more with Uptilt and expecially UpSmash.

Im curious whats your opnion on who are the Top 3 Heavies?

1.
2.
3.

At least, from my observations.

 

[Dark Phazon]

1. D
2. D
3. D

Honesly

@Feelicks i meant out of Bowser, DK, Ganon, Charizard, Ike, DDD.

R.O.B, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Falcon are not super heavyweights imo

 

[Deleted member]

Honesly

@Feelicks i meant out of Bowser, DK, Ganon, Charizard, Ike, DDD.

R.O.B, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Falcon are not super heavyweights imo

Oh, super heavyweights. I gotcha.

1.
2.
3.

Sorry, Triple D...

 

[Doctor_Link]

Honesly

@Feelicks i meant out of Bowser, DK, Ganon, Charizard, Ike, DDD.

R.O.B, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Falcon are not super heavyweights imo

Yet Ike is?

He sure doesn't play like a fattie. Or look like one, for that matter.

 

[Silly Symphony]

Couldnt agree more with Uptilt and expecially UpSmash.

Im curious whats your opnion on who are the Top 3 Heavies?

1) DK
2) Charizard
3) R.O.B.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Oh, super heavyweights. I gotcha.

1.
2.
3.

Sorry, Triple D...

No customes aswell...default.

Imo i think
1. Bowser.
2. DDD
3. Charizar/ike?

 

[Doctor_Link]

Dark Phazon
Ike is not a fattie. He is a muscular anime swordie. Please. He goes in the same spot as Wario, woth a weight ranking of 107, making him the 8th/9th heaviest character. Not a fattie.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Dark Phazon
Ike is not a fattie. He is a muscular anime swordie. Please. He goes in the same spot as Wario, woth a weight ranking of 107, making him the 8th/9th heaviest character. Not a fattie.

Well yeah but he plays more similar to the super heavies as in high knockback, good range and slow moves...

Eh...i just destroyed a Ike with D3 now lol

 

[dreamastermind]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPDpMwWS4g4 - Shows how crippling having such a large hurtbox is.

Having a large hurtbox is crippling, but Jdawg really made a lot of mistakes in that game. He's done much better in other games, but this performance is really just poor and I blame that more than the character.

 

[Soul Train]

No customes aswell...default.

Imo i think
1. Bowser.
2. DDD
3. Charizar/ike?

For the record, Bowser is NOT the best heavy. Hard stop. He has so many weaknesses it's not even funny, and he loses hard to every other heavy as well. His options are terrible, and almost all are very, very punishable.

Top right now is ROB/DK, dependent on player and matchup. Honestly that summarizes most of the "heavy" tier - all other spots are very matchup dependent. Bowser and Dorf are bottom, then it's a mixed bag. Also lol Ike isn't a heavy, just as Samus isn't.

Otherwise, we should try to stay on topic - this thread is about D3 and all.

 

[williamsga555]

The more I've thought about it the more I agree with the wishful buffs Soul Train proposed awhile back (can't recall which thread it was off-hand) that asked for -10 frames of start-up on several moves (the most notable of which was inhale).

Dedede having a quick-ish command grab would do so so much for him all around. That move has some serious potential to be pretty amazing but is incredibly lackluster (but still important!) as it currently stands.


Also best heavy depends on where we draw the line with who counts as heavy. Looking at this weight chart, and going just by the super heavies, I'd say DK is pretty soundly the best right now. Also since when does Ike weigh that much?

 

[Doctor_Link]

Honestly, Dedede's worst problem is his lack of hit boxes on a lot of his animations, like him having no hitboxes in the front part of back-air. Also, why do most taunts not have hitboxes?

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

A lot of DeDeDe problems stem from his lack of fast get-off-me moves in comparison with all the other heavies. He shares this problem with Ganondorf, but Ganondorf has much better hitbox placement and a faster moveset overall. Inhale and Jet Hammer also hold him back because those moves are unsafe to use, too slow to catch someone off guard or in Jet Hammers case just plain useless in neutral and after a shield break since F smash is already stronger.
A couple of useful buffs I hope he gets:

His jab had slightly faster startup, transitioned faster and had more IASA frames
His Fair and Bair had slightly larger or more accurate hitboxes
Fair getting a slight speed, damage and knockback boost
Down air having faster startup and a much larger sweetspot
Inhale having faster startup and less cooldown
Jet Hammer behaving like Kirby's, having super armor after letting go of the charge
Remove the blind spot in Up Smash and Down Smash
Up Tilt back to Brawl strength

 

[Furret]

Yet, again, I notice he seldom places in tournaments and there aren't many noteworthy users. Sakurai himself, on the loading transitions, insists Dedede is perfect, so I'm wondering if he really has any true weaknesses?

Run Speed 1.36 [48th]
Walk Speed 0.98 [39th]
Air Speed 0.658 [55th]
Fall Speed 1.95 [2nd]
something something, can't get around projectiles
something something, can't escape air traps

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

One of our GA guys, Unkempt, is just a notch below our Top 10 now. He's a Dedede main and putting in work.

Dedede still has horrible times approaching, but I still see him as a potent character.

 

[Axel311]

I feel like up tilt gaining a damage and knockback buff along with decreased startup and cooldown would give him a quick and meaty kill move that he needs sorely, especially since how that's the move functioned in Brawl. Comboing move at low percents, kill move at high percents. Ftilt is good for spacing as is, but I feel like it needs to be safer on shield and needs a knockback buff. , , , and all have killing forward tilts. Why can't Dedede when he has a giant and heavy as hell hammer for Adeline's sake? Up smash seriously needs to be faster and kill earlier. That move is so useless as it is right now it's ridiculous.

Dedede's ftilt doesn't kill because of its massive range. It makes sense really.

Agree on Upsmash though, it's a terrible move.

 

[Wnyke]

From my point of view DDD has trouble approaching because he lacks moves with early/fast hitboxes...
I almost always depend on reads, throwing moves as safe as I can, hoping for the best...
aproaching is a very difficult task, if your opponent has a move that is fast and beats gordo, then you are pretty much screwed(talking about vs good players)...

I can accept the fact he has a huge hurtbox, but with the slow moves (compared with the knock back)... he ends up being just an ok character... Roy has fast moves, and better mobility, along with better knockback... the only thing DDD gets over Roy is the Recovery and maybe range(unsafe), but let's face it, Roy would be hitted less times than DDD in a combo string, and Roy can build up percentage better than DDD...

I'm comparing him to Roy, cause I believe he has things DDD needs to be more "balanced", either more combo potencial, faster moves, better killing options (knockback increase), super armor(on Jet Hammer)... maybe if they put high shield damage on Jet Hammer, or any other grounded move so DDD could force it's opponent to do something and not sit on shield and punish your end lag... or the very rouge option of increasing the damage that is needed to hit gordo back at DDD...

I just need a move that is viable for beating shields, Inhale is ok, but is way too slow, and way too punishable and it has some blind spots...

 

[AAAZZZ]

Since we are talking about it, there are a lot of things I hate about Dedede's moves.

I may be alone in my disgust of ftilt. I've seen people roll through ftilt before it ends and smash me and I've seen ftilt trade with other attacks where ftilt only did 1-2%. Ftilt also frequently launches people out of the attack before it ends giving it unparalleled weakness for a character that doesn't really have many threatening moves. This is all on a move that lasts forever and is only marginally useful if you actually land it. Sure it has it's uses but I mostly stick with dtilts if I am going to use a move.

Dtilt, ftilt, and jab all punish you for using them if your opponent it too close. With dtilt there just is no hitbox on the move next to you so you just lazily roll past your opponent and the other two moves are more likely to send your opponent behind you if they are too close while locking you into a terrible animation. Meanwhile other characters reflect my gordos when they jab in the wrong direction without being hurt themselves.

I don't know what upsmash is for. I have used upsmash about twice in my last 500 games I think. In my mind Dedede is the only character in the game without an upsmash. Uptilt has far more potential for damage and killing at all stages in the game against every character. Jet hammer is useless, but lacking an upsmash is far more offensive.

Gordos are really cool.

 

[Cook]

Use up air. Condition to air dodge. Jump, bait air dodge, fast fall, up smash. Ggs. Also can be a punish oos sometimes.

 

[Krubby]

Inhale is D3's main answer to defensive options. Yes it needs slight frame data buffs to match the utility of Wario's Bite, but even still it's very usable. Spaced right Inale beats shield, spotdodge, and backroll. That's quite a lot. Also, you instantly gain stage control - either the opponent doesn't mash and has to eat an edgeguard (D3's best situation period), or mashes and faces a Uair/Fair mixup. Furthermore, as D3's throws suck for killing, opponents usually know to just shield at high %s until D3 opens himself up. Inhale beats this, as % doesn't affect how far opponents get spat out - I've gotten many clutch KOs with a nice Inhale -> Uair read.

Also if you're a stock up or even just at high percent while your opponent is low and are knocked off the edge, even if it's clear you wont get a suicide, just by showing the move to your opponent while offstage you can really scare them away from trying to edge-guard you. They probably will want to just stay onstage and not attempt any gimps.