Weren't the nerfs to Shine overkill?

[BradLeeTee]

It makes me quite sad knowing that Fox's shine has literally gone from the best attack in the entire game to quite possibly the worst. Ever since melee, shine has been my favorite attack of Fox's even in Brawl it was quite good but now its been nerfed so hard that its unusable. Frame 1 > frame 6 activation, no jump cancelling, massive end lag, range now worse than Jig's rest and even a disrespectful dmg nerf to make the already low 5% become 2%. Worst part is I still have a habit from brawl and melee of jumping off the stage in an attempt to shine spike only to help my opponent recover from off stage. I still have a shred of hope that shine will be rebuffed now that balance patches are available but that's unlikely isnt it...

 

[Timbers]

Fox definitely could have used some more offstage potential in the form of greater shine knockback or even shinestalling, but he's still a much better character in Sm4sh than what he was in Brawl. Count your blessings.

 

[Omega_Knight]

I wouldn't say it is the worst move. The design change was to make the shine work the way Sakurai intended: to reflect projectiles. Yea, if you miss there is a lot of lag but if you reflect something there is no lag. A lot of moves in Sm4sh are meant to be more thoughtful and carry certain risks.

 

[Derpiology]

I didn't really play as Fox much in Melee or Brawl (due to not liking Fox's speed in Melee and absolutely adoring Lucario and Cpt. Falcon in Brawl), and I never really used the shine when I did use him, but shining in sm4sh 3ds has always been something that I would never do because of how bad it is in combos compared to his other moves. I could imagine the anguish in Melee Fox mains when sm4sh came out with Fox having a laggy and unspikeable shine move.

 

[-NV]

Shining in melee was my favorite thing to do. I incorporated it into all of my combos, and even spammed multishines (very fun to do, especially to intimidate people xD)

in sm4sh, his shine on the offensive end just plain sucks. meh

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox definitely could have used some more offstage potential in the form of greater shine knockback or even shinestalling, but he's still a much better character in Sm4sh than what he was in Brawl. Count your blessings.

imo, he is actually worse, he received a lot of direct nerfs. Not just shine, lasers and slightly more lag to his moves, etc.

What he got in buffs, he got a lot of them indirectly: no chaingrabs to ruin him, changes to hitstun, overall changes to physics, pivot mechanics greatly benefit his movement and mixup options, etc.

So in this sense, Fox is better in Smash 4 because it's a different game that doesn't allow for others to destroy him like Pika, ICs and Sheik could in Brawl. When compared to the rest if the cast, there is no matchup yet that utterly ruins Fox the way the former did in Brawl.

Shine hitbox also comes out in frame 5 no?

And I agree, Fox didn't really need to get Shine nerfed. Sakurai and his team made sure in this game that Shine would not have any offensive potential (and even then, it can still be used to stage spike in some situations, lol).

 

[Timbers]

Fox is better in Smash 4 because it's a different game that doesn't allow for others to destroy him like Pika, ICs and Sheik could in Brawl. When compared to the rest if the cast, there is no matchup yet that utterly ruins Fox the way the former did in Brawl.

This is what I was getting at. He's a better character in this game because he doesn't get locked til 80%+ by 4 characters.

On a less important note, it seems like a lot of characters got direct nerfs from Brawl to Sm4sh, but engine changes and universal options helped balance things out.

 

[srn347]

Fwiw, the shine does do 3 things (reflect projectiles, hit opponents, and stall falling); that's 2 more than most reflectors. I can kind of see why nintendo wouldn't want to make it too good of a move.

 

[IrkenPPG]

I feel like the shine should do 5% and it should spike.

 

[BradLeeTee]

Well looks like Lucas got a magnet that's already being refered to as the 'new shine.' It can semi spike, kill, does a hefty 8% and even stalls his air momentum to boot, I'm a little pizzed off here

 

[M@v]

Shine comes out on in 6 frames now; its saddens me . It also has virtually no knockback. I think it has invulnerability on startup, but its not out until frame 6 as I mentioned, plus the knockback is so small the person you hit with it is right back on top of you after you use it. In any situation offstage where shine could be usuable, nair is better than it in every way. The 1/100 time it isn't is say a shine gimp on diddy near the bottom of the blastzone, where nairing would cause you to SD. but that situation should never, ever happen.

Shine is good for A. Reflecting projectiles and being hard to punish for doing so, since fox has the same cancelling tricks with it Ness (and I believe Lucas) have with their downbs B. Shine stalling to help recover or space. Its not quite as good as Brawl's shine at doing this, but it still works well enough.

 

[Foster J.]

I doubt it actually works on Frame 6, I've got cases where I've got the shine animation out, but still got hit by the projectile.... It's a broken thing, a legacy from his former glory now useless