Week #4 Matchup Discussion: Ness

[CHOMPY]

Ness

Specifically, the following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/bait your opponent
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• What moves to avoid
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall matchup ratio

 

[LEGOfan12]

Definitely my worst matchup. Any tips? PLEASE?!

 

[Yong Dekonk]

I will start by stating what not to do:

-Although you have reflectors, don't try to reflect Ness's pika fire with your side or down special. It's just not worth the risk if you fail.

-Ness wants to bait you, don't take the bait. Be cautious in your approach and wait for the right opportunity.

-Don't spam him with arrows on stage but instead try to use them when he's not expecting. Don't forget to redirect your arrows if he uses down special. This may frustrate him and cause him to get hit by your arrows later.

-Avoid approaching him near the ledge when you are at high percents. His back throw is OP.

A few tips.

-Ness is easier to snipe with arrows offstage because of his floatiness. If you can hit him with an arrow while he's curling his thunder under him offstage you will gimp him.

-Mash A after he gets you with a fair to disrupt a second fair.



I wish I had more tips but Ness is a tough opponent all around. I feel like it's really important to play a conservative game and just not make stupid mistakes. Get him off the ledge and go for the gimp when he's below the stage trying to recover.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Both dark pit and pit would like the room to avoid a lot of what ness may try, to large stages are good for us.

Ness has poor options to cover landing if you space properly for fairs and have the reaction timing (a whole half second or more) to shield pk pire, so a ness recovering high, or trying to aerially approach you will lose out most of the time. And following that logic, Ness can't approach us well. However, smart ness players will not commit entirely in their approaches. Rather, they will fade back as they use an aerial, or bait us, as @ Yong Dekonk says. And since neither pit nor Ness have the best approach options, both sides will play a bait-heavy game with a lot of mind games.

That said, the neutral game will depend heavily on the players themselves rather than on the matchup. A few things to note, grounded pk fires are easily punishable by run up shield and then Ness suffers from end lag and we can do whatever we want in that time frame. Never use f smash in the neutral or anything remotely punishable like that. Ness gets a free grab and dthrow fair follow ups. On a similar note, try not to get grabbed at low percents since you will take a hefty chunk of damage quickly.

Ness can be juggled by us with our up airs, or up smash through plat forms, while ness doesn't have as easy a time with his up airs, but watch out at high percents since his up air can kill. But we can contest his up air with our dair, but the hit box on his up air is pretty big so proper spacing is a must. If you can't get it down, you are better off trying to come down another way.

Our roll is faster and less punishable so don't be afraid to roll away just to create space. We can use our rolls to cross up shield every now and then to punish some ness attacks, but don't do this too often as we come into grab range or f smash range and if you get read, you get screwed.

On Ness's recovery, his pk thunder can be reflected with guardian orbitars but I am not quite familiar with the spacing that goes with this, so this tech may be pretty hard. I don't know. I don't get to practice this stuff when I want. And I usually kill with a parry f smash anyways since ness is so light.

Even though we have a good f throw, we should not always try to kill with it. We have a killer f throw, and ness has a deadlier b throw. The set up we are looking for (their back is to the ledge) favors the both of us. If we whiff a grab, then Ness grabs us and kills us. Not to mention that ness has a larger grab range than us. Pester ledge with our presence. Do not commit. Wait for them to screw up. Sometimes run up, but then hop back or roll back. Fire arrows sparingly. Do things to force a reaction and then punish. We can punish consistently, but ness can punish harder. DONT COMMIT.

When ness edge guards us, he can nair at ledge to cover up b, so be ready to tech the stage. In fact, any aerial of Ness's can be used to stop our up B, but we must hope their timing is off. It depends more on whether or not they know what to do when the time comes. If we try to side b into ledge, if Ness charges a low angled f smash, we get hit. I think we can go low enough that his low angled f smash can't hit us, but this needs testing. Either way, we have a lot of jumps so we can bait an edgeguard (like charged smashes) and retaliate or at least get back safely.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

At first glance, this MU seemed very easy. But once you actually play a Ness that knows what he's doing...things can get tricky. I suggest staying center stage as much as possible to avoid getting KO'd too early by his B-throw, also, try your hardest to gimp him with the Orbiters or Arrows....as that can really mess up his day.

 

[CHOMPY]

Me and Gamerhead played each other in bracket a few times. He's got a pretty solid Ness in our state, and he can give you some input on how the matchups should work.

How to handle Ness

PK Fire

-Respect it. You don't have enough time to roll through the PK Fire to grab or jab. Ness's PK Fire is mainly there for stage control, just like Robins Arcfire. Don't bother using the Guardian Orbitars because it doesn't reflect far enough to really hit Ness.

Ness's Fair

-Theres no way of trying to DI out of it at early percentage. I think once your above 50% (I think), you should be able to DI away from it.

-Ness will try to wall you out with fairs, so you can actually do the same thing to them and its just a matter of whoever apporaches first will win out the neutral game.

B-Throw

-Like @ Yong Dekonk said, avoid hanging by the ledge if your above 120% or higher. Unless Ness if facing the blastzones, then you should be able to barely survive the bthrow. Ness players can be very hasty, so use your dtilts to prevent them from approaching you. Sometimes, you'll see Ness trying to roll behind you and sneak in a bthrow, so the best answer is sidedodge first, then go for a rising dair to punish his attempt to grab you.

How to edgeguard Ness

-Shoot the arrows to bait Ness to use his down B. Eventually, they'll stop using the down B move and if your close enough, you should be able to hit him with an aerial, depending on where Ness positions himself. Again, you can also start firing off the arrows to gimp Ness. The longer her uses the down B, the further away he is from the stage .

-When he does the PK thunder offstage, use the Guardian Orbitars to redirect his PK thunder, and now Ness will have no way of getting back onstage.


Matchup ratio: I would say 60:40 in our favor, due to the fact that Pit can gimp Ness off stage between his arrows and Guardian Orbitars. Depending on the players style, if your not a patient player, then its 40:60 Ness's favor. If you are, then the match is heavily in Pits favor. Ness may have his early percent combos, and can kill earlier than Pit, but if Pit can avoid them at all costs, they should be fine.

 

[Makorel]

Did you guys know that if you get caught by PK Fire you can mash jump to get out of it? Saves me about 90% of the time.

 

[CHOMPY]

SERIOUSLY?!? I really need to try that out.

 

[PKBeam]

before I start saying anything please give me your definition of 40:60 in terms of -1, -2 etc.

 

[Ranias]

I think the Ness vs. Pit matchup is even or slightly in Ness's favor. I guess I can go about this by commenting on others' posts.

If you can hit him with an arrow while he's curling his thunder under him offstage you will gimp him.

This can work, but it is also possible for Ness to use PK Thunder again if you hit his body. If you manage to hit the PK Thunder head though, it is a guaranteed KO.

Ness has poor options to cover landing

This is true. I think both Ness and Pit are vulnerable to juggling. Pit can catch Ness as he is landing, as well as harass with arrows and Up Airs. Ness can catch Pit while he is landing (with a grab, PK Fire, or similar), as well as harass with PK Thunder.

On Ness's recovery, his pk thunder can be reflected with guardian orbitars but I am not quite familiar with the spacing that goes with this, so this tech may be pretty hard. I don't know. I don't get to practice this stuff when I want. And I usually kill with a parry f smash anyways since ness is so light.

Pit can push Ness's body with Guardian Orbitars and cause the PK Thunder to miss that way. Pit can also gimp a long range PKT2 by absorbing the blow of it with Guardian Orbitars, making the travel distance too short to reach the edge and also protect Pit from damage.

If we try to side b into ledge, if Ness charges a low angled f smash, we get hit. I think we can go low enough that his low angled f smash can't hit us, but this needs testing. Either way, we have a lot of jumps so we can bait an edgeguard (like charged smashes) and retaliate or at least get back safely.

Ness can't angle his F-Smash. He can angle his F-Tilt though. I usually don't edgeguard with a charged smash unless I am punishing a bad approach. I usually edgeguard with PK Thunder or PK Fire, unless I am doing an aerial to hit Pit out of his Up B.

Matchup ratio: I would say 60:40 in our favor, due to the fact that Pit can gimp Ness off stage between his arrows and Guardian Orbitars. Depending on the players style, if your not a patient player, then its 40:60 Ness's favor. If you are, then the match is heavily in Pits favor. Ness may have his early percent combos, and can kill earlier than Pit, but if Pit can avoid them at all costs, they should be fine.

I think you are overvaluing the ability to gimp the PK Thunder recovery. Ness is able to recover most of the time without PK Thunder. If the PK Thunder recovery is needed, I usually try to do it as fast as possible or low, making it difficult to gimp.

 

[Luco]

It's not a MU I have too much experience with in smash 4, but I will give my input regardless for what it's worth.

Pit and D. Pit I believe are two of the few characters that can outrange our Fair if timed correctly. That said, our Fair is really easy to hit with and combos into itself so very well at early percents. I'm not sure how DI-able Fair is at higher percentages actually.

On the other hand, Bthrow is something you'll have to keep in mind always. A fresh Bthrow with no rage will kill you guys from the near edge at a staggeringly early 94%, and from center-stage at 130%. With rage these numbers go down noticeably (you can find this info here: http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ (I love this thread so much ) ).

Pit can also be harassed offstage, so that's something you should be careful of. PKT juggling is also a thing.

Pit and D. Pit's biggest advantage over us in this MU is edge-guarding, but we force the approach in this MU and are generally very dangerous for you. Most of the other things have also been discussed so I won't go into it.

I believe the MU is actually quite close to even. Ness' vulnerability offstage is often over-stressed; I think its Pit's ability to keep up in neutral that makes this MU more fair and open for the better player to win.

But I really need more experience with this MU in reality so... yeah.

 

[CHOMPY]

@ Luco and @ Ranias Shall we do a Pit vs. Ness Crew Battle to be able to determine what the outcome of the matchup is? The more people that get involved the crew battle, the more input we can gather from different players experience on the matchup. After all, each player has a different style on how they play with their characters. By the end of the crew battles, we discuss how we truly feel about the matchup.

 

[Ranias]

@ Luco and @ Ranias Shall we do a Pit vs. Ness Crew Battle to be able to determine what the outcome of the matchup is? The more people that get involved the crew battle, the more input we can gather from different players experience on the matchup. After all, each player has a different style on how they play with their characters. By the end of the crew battles, we discuss how we truly feel about the matchup.

I'm willing, but I only have 3ds.

 

[Luco]

@ Luco and @ Ranias Shall we do a Pit vs. Ness Crew Battle to be able to determine what the outcome of the matchup is? The more people that get involved the crew battle, the more input we can gather from different players experience on the matchup. After all, each player has a different style on how they play with their characters. By the end of the crew battles, we discuss how we truly feel about the matchup.

I would love to but I also only have a 3DS right now. I do have a wii U but I'm currently on a gap year program far away from home (Australia haha) so I'm only able to use 3DS currently.

That said, if peeps are willing to temporarily convert to the 3DS for some matches on a weekend (where I am that's Friday and Saturday, not Saturday and Sunday ). Where I am would be approximately 6-9 hours ahead of America depending on where peeps are, so probably towards my evening would be a good time to play on a Saturday, if anyone would be interested in the prospect?

I think @Noa. has access to a Wii U if you guys can't do 3DS though, assuming he's willing to play it out a bit. ^_^

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

If we're talking matches count me in.

 

[brownzombie]

Count me in too. I haven't fought a good pit using Ness yet, and I want to put the knowledge I gained from this thread to use.

 

[Wintropy]

I'd love to join, too. I could do with embellishing my knowledge of Ness and how best to beat the little psychic so-and-so~ :3

 

[Dr. Snakes]

So yeah. Back at Paragon when I played a Ness in my pool, I actually managed to snipe their PK Thunder with one of my arrows. Everybody watching consequentially went temporarily insane.

Due to that moment, as well as horrible moments where I've just outright eaten PKT2s to the face, or have SD'd due to screwing up my timing with DownB, I typtically spam arrows on Ness off-stage and hope for the best.