Waveshining backwards as oppose to reverse waveshine

[Aber]

Hello Fox people, I main marth and secondary fox, and I have a waveshining issue that ive been sort of just ignoring for a while but cannot any longer and need some input. I've been waveshining for about a year and have gotten pretty consistent with it. However, I have come to realize that when I do it rather than shining and then repositioning the control stick for a wavedash, I just sort of slide the control stick from directly down into a 45ish degree angle for the wavedash (cheating sort of lol). The issue with this is that I am unable to wavedash backwards out of shine. So when I shine someone behind me instead of wavedashing backwards out of the shine I turn around in the shine and then wavedash out.....It generally works pretty well but I come here wondering if people feel that it would be worth it to "relearn" waveshining to wavedash backwards out of shine


If it is indeed worth it, I'm wondering how to go about it, because I tried practicing a lot and I just seem to have my habits and what I do like implanted in my brain and it seems so hard to unlearn this. Advice??

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Unfortunately, this is one of those times where doing whats "comfortable to you" or "what you're used to" doesn't cut it. I had/have this same problem and the only solution that I can find is relearning it the right way..... ie breaking down the individual button presses and making sure that I do them in the correct order rather than trying to be 'fluid' with the control stick to make it easier for my hand.

I also think that while practicing solo will help to a degree, you should be trying to break up the button presses while fighting in friendlies especially, to make sure you are doing it right. Therefore, you know you are gonna get that backwards waveshine EVERY TIME because you are pressing the buttons precisely and correctly. "Practice doesn't make perfect.... only perfect practice makes perfect"

This has not only helped my backwards waveshines but prevented me from accidentally phantasming out of a shine randomly when going forward (which happened every so often when I slid the control stick from down to 45+ degrees during the waveshine) so going to back to basics has certainly helped my fox game (my secondary main as well).

 

[Aber]

Thanks alot your absolutely right.....Seems self explanatory but what practice did you do specifically to be successful in changing the way u waveshine? Just practice practice practice?

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

It is a very subjective topic on what is the best way to practice and learn tech skill, especially if it has to be re-learned through breaking a habit. I swear some people can just pick it up and once they get it the first time, they have it down pat. I am quite the opposite.

I recommend spending about 20 minutes practicing it against CPU's or multiple humans with just the controller plugged in. Do this right before fighting friendlies. You can even go into training mode (cause you don't need the C-stick for this technique) that way you can clear percent faster. It'll also help going to a large flat stage like fd or dreamland. Think about the button presses as you do them, and get the timing down. The button presses shouldn't be fluid, but instead very sharp and precise (think staccato if you know music). Drill this into your head before fighting friendlies. Once you have the technique down, you can let it become more fluid. But until then, think sharp and quick and well-timed button presses. Make sure the wavedash is a separate hand movement from shine (reset the control stick to neural position).

When playing friendlies, what I like to do is try to do the thing I have practiced much more than it is smart to normally do (that way I get to practice it more). So try the backwards waveshine even if it may be easier to grab or nair shine. Finally, try to avoid finishing off your opponent with an easy turnaround-usmash when you can continue practicing the backward waveshine across the stage. Make use of your practice time and commit to learning it so that you don't fall back into your bad habits. Do this everytime you play your fox for 2 weeks and your brain should know not to do that simple slide from down to 45 degrees.

That's my 2 cents, other people may have a different perspective.

 

[Aber]

Ive been practicing this for a week now and have made very little progress at all. I can usually waveshine backwards just standing there and preparing for it but not even all the times and doing it after aerials forget about it. After aerials i end up either lasering, not shining at all, or turning around in my shine instantly.......Relearning this is proving almost impossible and im on the verge of just saying screw it.....Any advice for a way to practice better??

 

[OverDose]

Advice? Slow it down. Actually, I normally use the down input from the fastfall to get out the shine (unless im drilling, in which case, I just do it quickly, especially since the lag from drill is longer than from nair). afterwards, I just let go of the stick completely, letting it return to neutral, and then wavedash normally. there should really be only one way that you wavedash, in all situations. jump=>angle the stick=>R/L. If you can wavedash backwards out of shield, you can wavedash backwards out of shine. It's basically no different. If I am going to practice wavedashing (which I still do a bit since I fairly new to fox), I just hold shield with L and wavedash back a forth, if I see a dodge, I did it wrong.

When I aerial=>shine=>WD, it is basically 3 completely separate parts in my mind. Jump,aerial,FF,lcancel,let go. Then, down on the stick,B,let go. Then, jump,angle the stick,R. Doing it this way allows you to interrupt during any step to do something else, maybe you wanna jump outa shine, maybe you wanna grab outa shine. maybe you dont wanna shine at all, and rather shield, or grab, or run away.

 

[FoxLisk]

Ive been practicing this for a week now and have made very little progress at all. I can usually waveshine backwards just standing there and preparing for it but not even all the times and doing it after aerials forget about it. After aerials i end up either lasering, not shining at all, or turning around in my shine instantly.......Relearning this is proving almost impossible and im on the verge of just saying screw it.....Any advice for a way to practice better??

you can't do it after ONE WEEK and you want to give up?? do you take that attitude toward everything in your life? just keep at it dude

 

[Aber]

TY both for the advice

And foxlisk your right just gotta keep at it with the practice

 

[kailo34ce]

yeah the weirdest thing about this game is the best way to practice techskill is doing stuff that feels completely gross and wrong until you just learn it.

mental blocks and stuff.

and i started reverse waveshining like really slowly by taking my hand completely off the joystick then doing a wavedash like they are seperate parts too, after a short time it just came without thinking. of course i still mess up from time to time but yeah it comes easy


just remember to take things one small step at a time, this goes for all tech skill in melee

 

[FoxLisk]

TY both for the advice

And foxlisk your right just gotta keep at it with the practice

glad you took it the right way. i came back here to apologize for being too harsh haha.
im sure youll get it it just takes some practice. i imagine. i dont think i can actually do it :-\

 

[ArcNatural]

I had the same issue. I actually got a lot better at it by doing running CC shines to wavedash back. This makes it a little more timing sensitive and doesn't give you as much time to prepare. But it can actually be used as an approach in games and is relatively safe. Maybe trying it like this will help you as much as it did me.

Once I figured this out I was able to wavedash backwards out of shine from anything.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Yeah man don't give up!

It may take you forever to learn it if you aren't dedicated to making it a learned technique in your arsenal. Be patient and reflective! You did the right thing to ask for advice on here, but you also have to do your own thinking: how can I initiate the startup of backwards waveshining in regular friendlies? Ask this question to yourself in the middle of every friendlies session.

Obviously you can't just be trying this technique constantly or your opponents will wreck you and you'll get fed up and forget about it. Just try to do it twice per match or once per stock or something like that. Don't forget to try it in any given match.

As for good startup applications, I agree with ArcNatural that dashcancel shine turnarounds are a safe way to go. Also try drilling down from platforms into shine (then commence reverse waveshine). Also if you think your opponent will go into shield, jump over them, land, and either begin with shine or wd back into shine (then commence reverse waveshine).

The best aerial that leads into reverse waveshine for me is definitely drill (I still have trouble with tho). But nair is good too if you are more comfortable with nair shines.

Keep thinking of ways to startup the reverse waveshine! And don't forget that friendlies are just friendlies and you can do what you want to get better. If you get too frustrated then play against someone that is definitely worse than you for an extended period and work on this technique lol

Helps too if its a waveshine-able character that you're fighting (peach falcon link) as you have no excuse to stop your waveshine cause they can't escape

 

[OverDose]

Helps too if its a waveshine-able character that you're fighting (peach falcon link) as you have no excuse to stop your waveshine cause they can't escape

I agree with this completely. The only characters I practice against are Ganon, Peach, Link, Fox, and Marth (I think this gives a pretty good cross section of the types of weights, physics, and combo options that you will see). Treat shiek like a marth, treat Jiggs like a peach minus waveshine options, treat falco like fox, treat falcon like fox minus thuders and plus waveshines, treat the marios like Peach minus waveshines. All of these characters cover most every fox option. Of course, specific % for certain combos is different, but just learn fox and you can tell what you'll be able to combo into.

What does everyone else do for training foxes follow/combo game? I like training against Roy too, since he falls from shine (Thunders practice), but floats kinda weird, not quite marthlike, but not quite falcony either.

 

[Ballin]

lol i just picked up fox as my secondary too and i main marth.
and i have the same wavedashing back problem. i'm tempted to just forget about learning the "real" way since i've already gotten pretty fast at doing it forward. what situations would i have to waveshine backwards? can't i justy jc shine cancel in place fast enough and just run after him for a grab or something?

 

[Brookman]

you can't do it after one week and you want to give up?? Do you take that attitude toward everything in your life? Just keep at it dude

l o l