Wavelanding and Momentum

[Signia]

It seems like waveland distance is affected by momentum. Consider for a moment the difference between wavedashing and wavelanding. Wavedashing is just a waveland starting from the ground, but why is it that wavelanding results in more distance with comparable angles?

Also, it seems like fastfalling increases waveland distance. While fastfalling is already necessary to decrease air time to get into your waveland quicker, getting good angles after the fastfall can be challenging. These questions arose when playing Ganon, whose waveland distance seems significantly longer than his wavedash distance. Doing short hop fastfall 40 degree perfect wavelands seems to be the fastest way of moving horizontally on flat parts of stages. Perfect wavelands with other characters results in Luigi-like movement, and if fastfalling increases the distance like I think it does, long wavelands will be easier to execute and be a viable approach.

Or the distance discrepancy between WD, WL, and FF WL all in my mind?

can anyone verify?

 

[Pi]

it's in yo head kid

seriously though, you're half right

wavedashing in theory cannot get you as far as wavelanding
but they work off the same mechanics

if you want you can remove one word, just use wavelanding or wavedashing, they are essentially the same thing

the only reason they appear different is because when you 'waveland' you can get a more horizontal angle out of the air dodge, providing you with more distance.

when you wavedash, the actions that take place are as follows:
you jump
as soon as you are airborne you can airdodge, but it needs to be angled down toward the stage otherwise you will only air dodge
when you waveland, on a platform, or onto the stage, you can theoretically go entirely horizontal if you waveland at the right time

wavedashing you are going to need to go at an angle

ffing does not affect it, probably just shortens the window of time to give you a 'perfect' waveland.

 

[TheGoat]

it's in yo head kid

seriously though, you're half right

wavedashing in theory cannot get you as far as wavelanding
but they work off the same mechanics

if you want you can remove one word, just use wavelanding or wavedashing, they are essentially the same thing

the only reason they appear different is because when you 'waveland' you can get a more horizontal angle out of the air dodge, providing you with more distance.

when you wavedash, the actions that take place are as follows:
you jump
as soon as you are airborne you can airdodge, but it needs to be angled down toward the stage otherwise you will only air dodge
when you waveland, on a platform, or onto the stage, you can theoretically go entirely horizontal if you waveland at the right time

wavedashing you are going to need to go at an angle

ffing does not affect it, probably just shortens the window of time to give you a 'perfect' waveland.

Hmm thanks for the explanation, I too was wondering about this.

 

[Signia]

ok but just because it may be possible to entirely go horizontal (doubtful) when wavelanding doesn't explain the usual case where wavelanding gets more distance than wavedashing at similar angles. The rest of your explanation is not very useful

 

[Pi]

it does.

there is no difference between wavelanding and wavedashing, they are the same mechanics

if your wavedashes are much shorter than your wavelands, then you are probably not air dodging fast enough after leaving the ground. there are two factors in wavelanding/dashing that effect the total distance you travel; angle, and the time between when you air dodge and when you hit the ground.

characters like falcon & falco have a high vertical speed when jumping, so a couple frames delay on your air dodge can cause you to waste more time actually air dodging rather than wavelanding


[edit]
just realized how appropriate it was for me to respond to this thread

[edit2]
also i just remembered something DS said about melee landing physics
in melee you land around your knees/shins, so that may play a part in reducing the distance you can travel from a wavedash seeing as how you have to come back into contact w/ the ground

 

[mers]

superwavedash is right.

The only reason a waveland would be longer is because you can airdodge horizontally, which gives you a little more momentum than the slight downward angle required in wavedashing.

Airdodges cancel your momentum (I think), so prior momentum doesn't affect anything.

However, there are circumstances when airdodging doesn't affect momentum. I'm sure you all have experienced the phenomenon where you take a hit with high knockback, almost immediately slide off the edge of a platform, and instantly airdodge because you were trying to tech. In that situation, the momentum seems to carry over into your airdodge somewhat, and causes you to fly back while in the dodge animation.

Anyone know why that happens?

 

[Winston]

I'm pretty sure airdodging doesn't cancel momentum. Why do you say it does?

As Luigi I'm constantly having to deal with prior momentum while wavedashing. If Fox shines Luigi and he wavedashes ASAP he more or less stays in place >.>

 

[X1-12]

Gustav is right, but I think the others were talking about your up/down momentum when you land.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm pretty sure the distance is the same If the angle us the same. You just can't "perfect" wavedash (fully horizontal) like you can perfect waveland, which is slightly more distance than a maximum length wavedash.

 

[mers]

I'm pretty sure airdodging doesn't cancel momentum. Why do you say it does?

As Luigi I'm constantly having to deal with prior momentum while wavedashing. If Fox shines Luigi and he wavedashes ASAP he more or less stays in place >.>

Hmmm. I could definitely be wrong, but I got the impression that most of the time when you airdodge in place, even while moving, you stop dead.

Maybe the difference is momentum from getting hit vs momentum from movement. You retain all momentum from attacks when you airdodge, but lose any from running and jumping and whatever else.

 

[j3ly]

the reason u cant waveland as far as a wavedash is because there is no such thing as a perfect wavedash, but there is a perfect waveland.

floating down onto the floor allows you to waveland at a 90 degree angle, perfect waveland.
a wavedash does not allow you to float down to the floor and go directly sideways, you are shot at an angle from the start of ur jump. however, 90 degrees is not an available angle, and will result in an airdodge instead of a wavedash. the only way to do it perfect is to hit that 90 degrees.

 

[Cactuar]

My wavedash length is the same as my waveland.

 

[lwouis]

I believe that airdodge velocity is always the same (i.e. if you airdodge while still or while running, you will be moving at the same speed).

Therefore, wavelanding and wavedashing are only two different ways to get the same physical action. So the distance you cover when wavelanding is only greater because you manage to get a better angle.

It's like when you waveland out of edgehog with Ganon. It's easy to do almost a 90° angle on the control stick. If you run fast with Falcon, then jump and airdoge, you will airdoge at the same speed as usual, thus making your wave**** length only a parameter of your angle.

 

[ChivalRuse]

My wavedash length is the same as my waveland.

Yeah, same here.

 

[TheDekuNut]

j3ly's answer is the one to go by (its pretty good). every time you wave dash you are always in the air some distance above the platform and this distance even at the absolute frame perfect minimum is still a distance nonetheless. Part of the distance you air dodge will always be used to reach the platform first before sliding on it. i think you will get more distance out of wavelanding on platforms especially coming from below because their is a point when there is literally zero distance between the character and the ground so you can get 100% distance with a waveland. note the no impact drop and pc jump drop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMxgGtMLEfw

 

[Bones0]

I don't see how it is possible to waveland at 90 degrees. You would just airdodge sideways. Wavelands seeming longer is probably just a visual trick because your character is usually moving much faster when you do it. I just pseudo-tested to make sure they are the same length and they are. With Falco, you can WD across platforms, but not far enough to cause your character to teeter on the ledge. I tried wavelanding, FF wavelanding, and ledge hop wavelanding, and none of them sent me into the teeter animation.

 

[TheDekuNut]

yes i don't think you can air doge into the ground with a 90 degree air dodge at any instance. parallel lines don't intersect. also i'm pretty sure there are only a few specific directions in degrees you can actually move in with a dodge. Bones, try grabbing the ledge on battlefield/ystory and from there try to wave land on to the outer platform you should see a notable difference with the distance you slide. doing this should put falco just high enough to waveland onto the platform without ever actually going above it. when you are in between the platform you get pushed on top of instead of actually falling onto it. a zero impact landing

 

[Pi]

hold the control stick exactly horizontal when you waveland on platforms/on the ground

if you waveland, it was 90 degree's

remember that air dodging changes your hurtbox

it's entirely possible that in most, or all cases, air dodging elongates (vertically) your hurbox, forcing interaction with the ground where just falling would not have.