Wavedashing, what if it didn't exist? Would Melee still be as competitive for you?

[Deleted member]

Imagine a scenario in which Smash Bros. Melee didn't have the "wavedash" exploit, how would you feel about the game? Would it change any? or would your enjoyment remain the same? I say this because I feel the game itself is just as competitive with or without wavedashing. I don't mind that people enjoy doing it, and it does require a lot of intricate execution to pull off, but It's not something I feel is necessary for the game.

So what if for some reason Nintendo in the next few years creates a "Super Smash Bros. Melee HD" and patches out the wavedash, but the game remains the same, would you play this newer incarnation of the series? or is wavedashing vital to your enjoyment?

 

[^Hobbes]

Wavedashing, while a useful technique poses many helpful ground movement options for many different characters, but it definitely does not mean we as players are now so devoid of options that the game is no longer competitive.

Peach for example has the shortest and arguably worst wavedash in the game, yet a variety of other techniques are used to make the character challenging to use and fight against at various levels of play. Armada, Wife, and Llod are three examples that made this character work so well considering the circumstances.

Without wavedashing is melee still competitive? In short, yes. And heck, maybe Peach would advance a bit on the tier list given one option dies from the meta game she hardly used anyway. We could only speculate.

 

[EPsilon933]

Melee is a fighting game about movement. Wavedashing and wavelanding expand upon its depth well. It doesn't really require much intricacy to pull off. It's just 3 inputs. Melee would not be very similar without it, but it wouldn't be a bad fighting game

Wavedashing is a good ground movement option because it gives characters the ability to act out of it after only I think it's 14-19 frames after you do it. Rolling and walking can't do the same thing as quickly

Wavelanding helps characters move among platforms by halting their (usually upward) vertical movement to land on the surface they want to stand on, rather than waiting for them to reach their aerial peak and descend


As for tier list changes, Fox would plummet without it. He wouldn't be able to waveshine anymore. But he might still be viable because of everything else about him

 

[EPsilon933]

Oops. This post does not exist

 

[Deleted member]

Melee is a fighting game about movement. Wavedashing and wavelanding expand upon its depth well. It doesn't really require much intricacy to pull off. It's just 3 inputs. Melee would not be very similar without it

Wavedashing is a good ground movement option because it gives characters the ability to act out of it after only I think it's 14-19 frames after you do it. Rolling and walking can't do the same thing as quickly

Wavelanding helps characters move among platforms by halting their (usually upward) vertical movement to land on the surface they want to stand on, rather than waiting for them to reach their aerial peak and descend

For me, since I grew up playing Melee for many years playing with friends and such and not having experience with wavedashing until recent years and messing with it myself whilst also watching tons of streams and appreciating how people apply it, I think it more or less doesn't affect the quality, depth, or motive of the game because the game was designed not with wavedashing in mind, it's something the players discovered. I heard Sakurai knew of it, but it wasn't intended I'm certain or else a part of the game would have explained it.

I think regarding intricacy, it's more so the execution, it doesn't really matter to decent players who can pick it up with ease, but for most, it's not something that easily to adapt into a match and can lead to a lot of error if done incorrectly more so than other moves.

Melee for me would honestly be the same, but it certainly would be different as you stated for those that have used it (especially tournament veterans). I feel, however, that isn't a bad thing really. Melee is such a fun game with all kinds of depth to it with or without it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think the game would merely lose a ton of fluidity about it. Wavedash is very pivotal in getting precise and fast movement. From it you can quickly get from standing to fast walk without needing to dash. You can stop in place and remain grounded keeping your options open if you dashed very far forward. Shield -> Wavedash is faster than dropping shield by 7 or 10 frames I think. Its very significant.

The game would be a lot more rigid.

 

[bearsfan092]

You also wouldn't be able to have a backwards retreating option akin to other fighting games, which I think is the real reason we love wavedashing so much. You don't really wavedash forward in neutral very often.

 

[Racuncai]

We still have perfect pivots and shields stops to cover options out of a dash, the game is deep and wavedash and wavelands are only 2 of many options in the game.

 

[Roukiske]

Short answer, yes, but maybe neutral game would be very different. Not all characters use wavedashing all that much (Jiggs) and it doesn't take away too much from characters (notably maybe Fox and Luigi). Regardless, the physics of the game still allow you to combo and stay on the offensive. Hype would still be there. I like hype.

 

[Spak]

We still have perfect pivots and shields stops to cover options out of a dash, the game is deep and wavedash and wavelands are only 2 of many options in the game.

Dashdancing, not perfect pivots. DD is much more useful and has a larger frame window.

Anyways, I think that we would have a game that would be severely lacking in OoS options, impaired movement, less freedom with your character, and it would not have the competitive depth that the game has (since WD is included). None of the cast would have as good a combo game, tech chasing would be harder (beyond the point of human reaction for some characters), and I think all of these aspects would make the game less competitive. It's hard to say, though, because we don't know for sure what the game would be like without a WD, seeing that there is no such official copy.

We would also not have the Wombo Combo because we wouldn't have Shine -> WD in place -> U-Smash. That would be unfortunate to say the least.

 

[_A1]

I would still be competitive I guess, but I wouldn't find it all that fun.

 

[EPsilon933]

We would also not have the Wombo Combo because we wouldn't have Shine -> WD in place -> U-Smash. That would be unfortunate to say the least.

It was actually shine > jump > canceled into usmash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imYhNoQ4

 

[SAUS]

As for tier list changes, Fox would plummet without it. He wouldn't be able to waveshine anymore. But he might still be viable because of everything else about him

I don't think Fox would plummet. He might be more affected than a lot of other characters, but fox is just a beast. Good hitboxes that come out quick and the shine still gives him a nice answer to crouch cancel and shield. He would still be able to shine grab and do pillar-on-shield type pressure.

I think the characters that would be hurt the most are the ones who really need it out of shield (marth). I guess everyone would be worse out of shield by quite a big margin lol. Anytime wavedash out of shield is needed for a punish means a new safe option on shield.

The game would probably still be competitive, but I think it would be worse without wavedashing / wavelanding (less deep, less fun). Not sure if it would have lasted as long.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Imagine a scenario in which Smash Bros. Melee didn't have the "wavedash" exploit, how would you feel about the game?

Technically, the wavedash was never an "exploit" to begin with because it was never a flaw or oversight, it was programmed in to the physics of the game. Basically, by air-dodging in any direction one has to ask the question what happens when you air-dodge directly into the ground at an angle: either you will hit the ground and "slide", thus giving the sense of 'conserving momentum' as you land, or you will hit the ground and come to a stop (similar to air-dodging into a wall).

So what if for some reason Nintendo in the next few years creates a "Super Smash Bros. Melee HD" and patches out the wavedash,

So as with the above, to remove wavedashing would be to remove directional air-dodging a la Brawl, or the only other possible option, make your character ignore the ground collision and come to a "stop" in mid-air (or collide with the ground and come to a full stop upon impact).

I heard Sakurai knew of it, but it wasn't intended I'm certain or else a part of the game would have explained it.

Technically, the instruction manual alluded to it (p.14) (see above for reasoning).

 

[Varist]

losing the wavedash would destroy both spacies they'd essentially become like Mario as a character, make the whole game less fun, make shielding risky, make platform stages gay as **** to play on, losing wavedashing would change so much of the tier list and what makes the game fun to move around and play in and i probably wouldnt play it anymore

 

[Bones0]

losing the wavedash would destroy both spacies they'd essentially become like Mario as a character, make the whole game less fun, make shielding risky, make platform stages gay as **** to play on, losing wavedashing would change so much of the tier list and what makes the game fun to move around and play in and i probably wouldnt play it anymore

I think no WDing would hurt Falco's combos, but his neutral would be significantly better if people have to roll/jump after shielding lasers because they can't WD OoS.

 

[tauKhan]

Shield -> Wavedash is faster than dropping shield by 7 or 10 frames I think. Its very significant.

I wonder how you arrived at that number haha. No harm done though, I just found it funny.

More random stuff on jabs out of shield using a waveshield vs unshielding.

Faster to WD:
Fox, Pichu, Pikachu, Sheik, Young Link, Falcon, Marth, G&W, Samus
(1 frame difference, except samus - 2 frames).

Everyone else: it's tied/ faster to release shield.

Note, it's also significantly easier to just let go of L/R while being hit than try to do a perfect wavedash w/ a 1 frame margin of being out of shield stun.

Though wd allows you to move OoS, which is what makes it the superior option in many cases.