Wait, Palutena's good now?

[Rango the Mercenary]

I could have sworn everyone swore by her being a bad character. Once we realized DThrow into Uair could be evaded and her specials were almost inarguably bad, it seems she was destined for bottom tier. Am I seeing a resurgance in popularity?

Was this because of a new advanced technique or something?

 

[JSG]

I'm just as confused as you are, but I hear a lot of good things about Palutena's aerials still and I still hear how her dash attack is one of the best dash attacks in the game (I believe I heard M2K and ZeRo say that once, but don't quote me on that). I actually didn't know that her down throw to up air was evadable; I just thought it was only guaranteed at certain percents/characters?

I personally like using custom Palutena over her default specials. Her movement options and combo/followup ability with her jump glide and super speed are really fun and good. The only other bad part people say about her moveset is her tilts, which I would agree with.

People thought she was going to be a pretty godly character from the start (no pun intended), but I feel she pales in comparison to other characters. Even early tier lists placed her way up there (though granted, some were lists made before the game even came out). Though I do believe she is one of the characters people are sleeping on that has some potential to be pretty good. But that's just me.

EDIT: I also hear her jabs are one of the best jabs in the game. She seems like quite the mixed bag of a competitive character.

 

[Zylach]

From what I've seen, Palutena is slowly working her way up many people's mental tier lists mostly for her aerials and grab game. On certain characters, d-throw-->nair-->uair is guaranteed up to about 40% I think. Her aerials have next to no landing lag and her fair is especially spammable making it safe to use to zone a character out or to apply lots of pressure to overly defensive players. Her dash attack is definitely one of the better ones, the main drawback to it is the fact that it is heavily unsafe on shield. It cancels out most projectiles which makes it safe for approaching campy characters like Link and Samus. Her default specials are still generally agreed on as being mediocre besides her up-B and reflector on some matchups. I've seen Palutena use the push mechanic of her reflector to gimp a lot of recoveries. Also, her jab 1 is really powerful, pushing characters up into the air just enough for them to be completely vulnerable to whatever followup Palutena desires like grab, fair, and even fsmash on some characters. The main thing that is still holding her back and keeping her probably low in the middle tier is her tilts and laggy kill moves other than uair. Uair is her main killer because it's fast and reliable plus a multihit which is good against air dodges.

 

[SethTheMage]

Ever since I started playing her on the 3DS, I've thought she's pretty underrated for reasons Zylach posted (Jab 1's speed, range, and followups, invincibility frames on Dash Attack and Bair that will win every non-disjointed trade and block projectiles, good dash speed, great grab game and aerials, Warp shenanigans, and certain utility in Reflect). I hope that we'll see some Palutena players at Apex that will help show her off and make a lot of people realize her potential.

With my lack of high-level tournament experience, I can't say how good she is, but I strongly doubt she's bottom tier. I'd say she's more around mid. Palutena gets a lot of flack for her terrible tilts and laggy Smashes, but I think the rest of her game makes up for it in a lot of areas. If I could change one thing, though, it would be to get a reliable kill throw. That would make her really good.

 

[ChivalRuse]

D-throw to uair is NOT evadable. It works guaranteed (till the low to mid 100%s) IF your opponent doesn't DI away (or up+away) at higher percents. But they won't always be able to DI it. If you just throw them instantly after grabbing, most people can't react (online it's basically impossible). They have to know they're getting grabbed to INTENTIONALLY DI it, but if they knew they'd be getting grabbed, it means they messed up, so it's not bad for you.

Furthermore, even with DI, you can frame trap, bait, grab them when they land and try again even. Some alternate follow-up options that can lead to a KO are up-smash, bait airdodge and land uair, bait DOUBLE JUMP and uair, bait aerial and upsmash/shield the aerial and d-smash/up-smash out of shield/or shield grab and down-throw again.

As you can see, all of these situations can occur if your opponent DOES DI. But if they don't, enjoy killing Rosalina off the top when you grab her at 70%.

NOTE that you have have to double jump uair VERY fast after the d-throw to combo it at higher percents, even with no DI, so practice a lot. It's very close to being a true combo, so close in fact that I think your uair will hit them if they start the air dodge before they become invincible.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

There are bad characters in this game?

As long as a character has a decently unique mix of strengths, that character will be viable. Perhaps that character won't be for everyone but if a character has enough good tools, and every character has weaknesses (we are almost perfectly at that point, only a few things may remain to be real problems like Diddy), I see no reason why that character should be called bad. There are a few questionable characters but no bad ones.


From my scouring of Palutena players/videos online though, yes it does seem like she's becoming more popular. Which makes sense because so many people tried Palutena out with the mindset of a different character's, then quickly judging her to be terrible without giving her more time.

 

[κomıc]

She's always been good since 1986.

 

[meleebrawler]

D-throw to uair is NOT evadable. It works guaranteed (till the low to mid 100%s) IF your opponent doesn't DI away (or up+away) at higher percents. But they won't always be able to DI it. If you just throw them instantly after grabbing, most people can't react (online it's basically impossible). They have to know they're getting grabbed to INTENTIONALLY DI it, but if they knew they'd be getting grabbed, it means they messed up, so it's not bad for you.

Furthermore, even with DI, you can frame trap, bait, grab them when they land and try again even. Some alternate follow-up options that can lead to a KO are up-smash, bait airdodge and land uair, bait DOUBLE JUMP and uair, bait aerial and upsmash/shield the aerial and d-smash/up-smash out of shield/or shield grab and down-throw again.

As you can see, all of these situations can occur if your opponent DOES DI. But if they don't, enjoy killing Rosalina off the top when you grab her at 70%.

NOTE that you have have to double jump uair VERY fast after the d-throw to combo it at higher percents, even with no DI, so practice a lot. It's very close to being a true combo, so close in fact that I think your uair will hit them if they start the air dodge before they become invincible.

I feel that it should be mentioned that rage on Palutena
greatly changes how she gets followups from Dthrow after
about 100%.

 

[Phenomiracle]

There are bad characters in this game?

Zelda says hi.

People were quick to dump on her given her painfully laggy tilts, Dsmash, and specials (though I always thought Warp was a half-decent move).

I noticed a resurgence in popularity as soon as people realized just how awesome her jab is. Her Fair (and arguably Bair) are great for zoning, Dair is a great surprise given how quick it comes out.

 

[meleebrawler]

Zelda says hi.

People were quick to dump on her given her painfully laggy tilts, Dsmash, and specials (though I always thought Warp was a half-decent move).

I noticed a resurgence in popularity as soon as people realized just how awesome her jab is. Her Fair (and arguably Bair) are great for zoning, Dair is a great surprise given how quick it comes out.

Hey, Reflect Barrier is good for what it is.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Hey, Reflect Barrier is good for what it is.

Gotta love punishing Fsmash-happy greedy Megamans at 70%.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Zelda says hi.

People were quick to dump on her given her painfully laggy tilts, Dsmash, and specials (though I always thought Warp was a half-decent move).

I noticed a resurgence in popularity as soon as people realized just how awesome her jab is. Her Fair (and arguably Bair) are great for zoning, Dair is a great surprise given how quick it comes out.

Have you seen Nairo's Zelda? Definitely not a bad character.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Have you seen Nairo's Zelda? Definitely not a bad character.

Nairo's impressive results with her mean nothing when it comes to her massive, massive flaws. It's Brawl all over again. Zelda starts out half-decent, because no one knows how to handle her, but given her obvious flaws (pathetic mobility, lack of means to force approaches, end lag everywhere etc.), which were made worse given that Sakurai actually nerfed her almost as hard as he did Meta Knight, her proper placement at the ultimate bottom, far below everyone else, will make itself quite clear with time.

Zelda is garbage in Smash 4. Please don't make me call the other Zelda mains over here to explain this to you.

Back to Palutena. Did I mention how awesome her Dair is? This character is an infinitely better version of Zelda, no wonder her style was easy to adapt to (apart from those laggy tilts).

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Well considering Nairo does consider Zelda to be a good character, I think it's too early to say for sure she's bad.

As I said earlier, characters may have weaknesses/flaws, but if they have enough unique strengths then it's possible to win and thus to me that character isn't truly bad, just questionable or situational (as in depends on the player). Zelda's great at getting very early kills with her long lasting spike and killing off the top at 50% for example.

Maybe players will figure it out and know how to neutralize her strengths while taking advantage of her strengths, but until that happens I don't consider her to be a bad character.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Well considering Nairo does consider Zelda to be a good character, I think it's too early to say for sure she's bad.

Nairo is one of Smash 4's very best, but one opinion isn't much to go by, especially this early in the meta.

As I said earlier, characters may have weaknesses/flaws, but if they have enough unique strengths then it's possible to win and thus to me that character isn't truly bad, just questionable or situational (as in depends on the player). Zelda's great at getting very early kills with her long lasting spike and killing off the top at 50% for example.

Zelda's weaknesses aren't half-made up for by her strengths. Zelda has only one reliable move that kills off the top (the elevator), and the set-up could be easily escaped. You're talking fringe-gameplay here, you might as well mention her excellent recovery. Her neutral game is awful, she isn't a combo character, has practically no zoning options (nerfed range on everything), and her heavy hits are laggy, escapable, and don't pack near enough reward worth the risk. Her whole style is reliant on predictable gimmicks.

But to go back to your initial point, yes, there certainly are bad characters in Smash 4. Zelda, while being the most profound in bad, isn't the only one.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Zelda's f-tilt is a great KO tool. Her d-tilt combos into itself and other moves. Her d-throw combos to nair pretty much always. Din's fire is amazing as an edgeguarding tool and for general disruption on stage. Her dash attack is fast and has a good hitbox. Her fair/bair can KO at silly-low percents. Up-b out of shield is pretty reliable if you can set it up. Nayru's love has really high priority and can almost be considered a Gaara-like "ultimate defense" when you can't avoid your opponent being able to break past your spacing.

Even still, I think Palutena is a better character.

 

[meleebrawler]

Zelda's f-tilt is a great KO tool. Her d-tilt combos into itself and other moves. Her d-throw combos to nair pretty much always. Din's fire is amazing as an edgeguarding tool and for general disruption on stage. Her dash attack is fast and has a good hitbox. Her fair/bair can KO at silly-low percents. Up-b out of shield is pretty reliable if you can set it up. Nayru's love has really high priority and can almost be considered a Gaara-like "ultimate defense" when you can't avoid your opponent being able to break past your spacing.

Even still, I think Palutena is a better character.

Don't forget jab into grab or dash attack (hey, something
the two goddess girls share) and Phantom shenanigans.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I did mention the dash attack

 

[meleebrawler]

But you didn't mention jab which can lead into it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah jab can even lead to f-smash. I know that her jab is amazing, but I'm always dashing around so much that I rarely have time to us it.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'll just wrap this up by saying uncharged Phantom
can be surprisingly useful. Approaching is less
scary with a bodyguard buffer.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Imagine if Din's fire was like Robin's Arcfire. Zelda would be untouchable between that and Nayru's Love.

 

[Pale Tuna]

I like how this thread got derailed from Palutena to Zelda. <.<

 

[ChivalRuse]

Let's get back on track. Edgeguarding: bair and dair are both incredible tools for edgeguarding. I like bair more though because, being invincible, you don't really have to worry about up-b hitboxes and stuff as much. Bair is really good for stuffing Diddy's side-b too.

 

[BJN39]

Zelda's f-tilt is a great KO tool. Her d-tilt combos into itself and other moves. Her d-throw combos to nair pretty much always. Din's fire is amazing as an edgeguarding tool and for general disruption on stage. Her dash attack is fast and has a good hitbox. Her fair/bair can KO at silly-low percents. Up-b out of shield is pretty reliable if you can set it up. Nayru's love has really high priority and can almost be considered a Gaara-like "ultimate defense" when you can't avoid your opponent being able to break past your spacing.

Even still, I think Palutena is a better character.

Zelda's ftilt KOs at like, 140-150%, and still hits on frame 12 I admit that's alright, but not exactly great imo. On the bright side, it was one of few moves to retain its Brawl range in the transfer.

Dtilt and Dthrow combos are pretty inconsistent or frame tight. for Dthrow you need to be very on point to actually land the combo on anyone remotely not heavy, and Dtilt can easily be interrupted by a fast aerial, or if they touch the ground, they can easily shield it, which leads to a punish. Of course these two can still get Zelda some nasty followups, but getting them is not that easy.

Din's fire is alright at edgeguards, but use while the opponent is onstage is a pretty bad idea unless they have no projectile or reflector or invincibility move.

Like many dash attacks her's is fast, and the hit-box is neat in that it stays a larger size while deteriorating than it did in Brawl, but it's still very unsafe. Which should not be overlooked, no matter how much Nairo manages to get away with it.

FAir/BAir DO KO at like, 80-90, but that's only if you hit while at like, point blank at an exact vertical level. It's super inconsistent, and hitting with the sour-spot or even just whiffing the moves is even more unsafe due to extra landing lag, and a monstrous 20 extra endlag frames and a terrible new auto-cancel window. (Or lack thereof.) Did I mention they added more startup, too?

I will agree with you on FW. This can be a semi-saving grace for almost all of her KO moves getting KB nerfs in SSB4.

I just felt that these should be addresseT. While you make some good parts sound nice, many a good part is surrounded by plenty of shortcomings that can't be overlooked.

Edit : oops, well, sorry I sort of brought that back in the midst of a re-synch with the actual subject. My bad ^ ^ I'll just end it there.

 

[meleebrawler]

Zelda's ftilt KOs at like, 140-150%, and still hits on frame 12 I admit that's alright, but not exactly great imo. On the bright side, it was one of few moves to retain its Brawl range in the transfer.

Dtilt and Dthrow combos are pretty inconsistent or frame tight. for Dthrow you need to be very on point to actually land the combo on anyone remotely not heavy, and Dtilt can easily be interrupted by a fast aerial, or if they touch the ground, they can easily shield it, which leads to a punish. Of course these two can still get Zelda some nasty followups, but getting them is not that easy.

Din's fire is alright at edgeguards, but use while the opponent is onstage is a pretty bad idea unless they have no projectile or reflector or invincibility move.

Like many dash attacks her's is fast, and the hit-box is neat in that it stays a larger size while deteriorating than it did in Brawl, but it's still very unsafe. Which should not be overlooked, no matter how much Nairo manages to get away with it.

FAir/BAir DO KO at like, 80-90, but that's only if you hit while at like, point blank at an exact vertical level. It's super inconsistent, and hitting with the sour-spot or even just whiffing the moves is even more unsafe due to extra landing lag, and a monstrous 20 extra endlag frames and a terrible new auto-cancel window. (Or lack thereof.) Did I mention they added more startup, too?

I will agree with you on FW. This can be a semi-saving grace for almost all of her KO moves getting KB nerfs in SSB4.

I just felt that these should be addresseT. While you make some good parts sound nice, many a good part is surrounded by plenty of shortcomings that can't be overlooked.

Edit : oops, well, sorry I sort of brought that back in the midst of a re-synch with the actual subject. My bad ^ ^ I'll just end it there.

Can't blame you, the way the Zelda boards are (especially the social)
make it very hard to get anything meaningful said about her.

 

[BJN39]

Well, I consider her social more of complaint megadump / parti.

Zeldas can be decently productive on other threads that pertain to competitive discussion. Of course, we acknowledge she's bad~

 

[ChivalRuse]

Zelda's ftilt KOs at like, 140-150%, and still hits on frame 12 I admit that's alright, but not exactly great imo. On the bright side, it was one of few moves to retain its Brawl range in the transfer.

Dtilt and Dthrow combos are pretty inconsistent or frame tight. for Dthrow you need to be very on point to actually land the combo on anyone remotely not heavy, and Dtilt can easily be interrupted by a fast aerial, or if they touch the ground, they can easily shield it, which leads to a punish. Of course these two can still get Zelda some nasty followups, but getting them is not that easy.

Din's fire is alright at edgeguards, but use while the opponent is onstage is a pretty bad idea unless they have no projectile or reflector or invincibility move.

Like many dash attacks her's is fast, and the hit-box is neat in that it stays a larger size while deteriorating than it did in Brawl, but it's still very unsafe. Which should not be overlooked, no matter how much Nairo manages to get away with it.

FAir/BAir DO KO at like, 80-90, but that's only if you hit while at like, point blank at an exact vertical level. It's super inconsistent, and hitting with the sour-spot or even just whiffing the moves is even more unsafe due to extra landing lag, and a monstrous 20 extra endlag frames and a terrible new auto-cancel window. (Or lack thereof.) Did I mention they added more startup, too?

I will agree with you on FW. This can be a semi-saving grace for almost all of her KO moves getting KB nerfs in SSB4.

I just felt that these should be addresseT. While you make some good parts sound nice, many a good part is surrounded by plenty of shortcomings that can't be overlooked.

Edit : oops, well, sorry I sort of brought that back in the midst of a re-synch with the actual subject. My bad ^ ^ I'll just end it there.

Yeah, a lot of my analysis of Zelda was based on watching Cosmo's Zelda. But I'll concede that Zelda is probably worse than I made her sound, considering she's a pretty slow character overall.

 

[PeachyKeen89]

Me and my friends coined her name as the new terrible around my house if you mess up something or are just bad at it I just say "alright palutena"

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think that the biggest reason why people think Palutena is not a good character is simply because no top players use her. Honestly, that's the only reason that makes sense. I mean, realistically she's not like Diddy, Sheik or Ness, but once people discover her she will certainly end up somewhere high on the tier list.

 

[Wintropy]

Palutena's a peculiar character alright. Incredibly fast dash, slow as hell smashes; almighty jab and throws, poor to decent tilts.

She's not the kind of character you can just pick up and play. You have to know the ins and outs of her playstyle and what she can and can't do. She's a character of massive extremes, and these vary wildly in and of themselves.

Trying to lure the opponent in with a f-smash? Prepare for punishment.

Whiff a d-smash? You're wide open for a spankin'.

Miss your u-smash? Enjoy the crazy endlag.

Actually time it well and hit with any of those moves? Now you're talkin'!

You can't just rush in willy-nilly with Palutena. You have to know when's the best time to defend and how to punish appropriately. This is where the interesting elements of her playstyle come into their own: you need to be able to take advantage of her attributes, the good and the bad, and make the most of them. Know your strengths and your weaknesses and make optimal use of them. The same applies to any character, of course, but Palutena takes it to its logical extreme.

With Palutena, you have two options: hit hard or go home. Pick up and play expecting to win and she's a walking disaster; git gud and learn how to wield her effectively and she's a divine miracle.

 

[| Big D |]

Palutena is solid.

 

[TheRealPalutena]

Never really understood it. I always thought she was pretty solid...

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, I consider her social more of complaint megadump / parti.

Zeldas can be decently productive on other threads that pertain to competitive discussion. Of course, we acknowledge she's bad~

I posted a rant in the competitive discussion forum
decrying the general attitude towards Zelda.
To sum it up, she basically has the attributes of
a lethal joke character, very difficult to use and probably low
on tier lists, but can be extremely rewarding on a
gameplay and emotional level when you make things work.
However, because she isn't played up to be a character like
this, people don't get that feeling with her.

Back to Palutena, I think another part of the
"Palutena is bad" mantra is the frequent saying
of "she becomes top 10 with customs", so why learn
to play with default Palutena when custom is so blatantly
superior (and as of yet unusable)?

Previous Smash games have encouraged the thought
process of "if you're not top of the line, you're not worth
bringing to tournaments". This is less true in this game
of course, but it's probably frustrating for people
wanting to use Palutena that she could potentially
be top of the line if it weren't for rules.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I definitely agree with Wintropy: her smash attacks can't be used liberally. You should, in fact, attempt to NOT use them. The only times when you can use them is to edgeguard or to punish blatantly bad spacing. Up-smash can be sparingly used to catch opponents who wander carelessly into its upward range.