vs Rosalina and Luma

[Neo Zero]

For Match Up Discussion against Rosalina

 

[BluePikmin11]

I'll just go and say that Dark Pit's arrows are useless against Rosalina and Luma..
Never use the Electroshock Arm when you're in front of Luma.
I have no idea how properly approach Rosalina.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll just go and say that Dark Pit's arrows are useless against Rosalina and Luma..
Never use the Electroshock Arm when you're in front of Luma.
I have no idea how properly approach Rosalina.

Electroshock is great for dealing with Luma, actually. Not that you'll want to hit him with it while Rosalina is nearby...

 

[BluePikmin11]

Electroshock is great for dealing with Luma, actually. Not that you'll want to hit him with it while Rosalina is nearby...

Exactly why it's too risky.

 

[LancerStaff]

Exactly why it's too risky.

An aerial one while Rosalina is away works for me.

 

[BluePikmin11]

@ LancerStaff
I haven't tested it out though, does it shoot Luma very far away?
if so, then I'm probably going to use that more often.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ LancerStaff
I haven't tested it out though, does it shoot Luma very far away?
if so, then I'm probably going to use that more often.

Clear off the stage 99% of the time. I'd say it's worth getting hit for sometimes, especially with a Luma dependent player.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Clear off the stage 99% of the time. I'd say it's worth getting hit for sometimes, especially with a Luma dependent player.

I'll test it out soon, I'm going to put that in my top priority list to do in the weekend.

 

[New_Dumal]

That's a bad Dark Pit Match-Up. From now, I would say 70 x 30
Really hard to approach, not so easy to punish, almost impossible to combo a good Rosalina.
You can't even pummel at most of the time, problems with killing is even worse, because Luma protects her from the Electroshock Arm. Guardian Orbitars can kill reflecting Luma, but a good Rosalina just don't charge that in a way you can count on this.
Your best option to kill is try to force a frame-trap to a FSmash, or hit the Bair sweetspot out of the stage.
What can an poor angel do when even her dress outrange and kill us all ?
What can an poor angel do when she has a cursed star protecting her from our best killmove ?
Even her recovery is almost as good as Pit/D.Pit ... I never understood why.

 

[LancerStaff]

That's a bad Dark Pit Match-Up. From now, I would say 70 x 30
Really hard to approach, not so easy to punish, almost impossible to combo a good Rosalina.
You can't even pummel at most of the time, problems with killing is even worse, because Luma protects her from the Electroshock Arm. Guardian Orbitars can kill reflecting Luma, but a good Rosalina just don't charge that in a way you can count on this.
Your best option to kill is try to force a frame-trap to a FSmash, or hit the Bair sweetspot out of the stage.
What can an poor angel do when even her dress outrange and kill us all ?
What can an poor angel do when she has a cursed star protecting her from our best killmove ?
Even her recovery is almost as good as Pit/D.Pit ... I never understood why.

I think you're overreacting bit... It's nowhere near that extreme, but most of the problems you listed feel like they're there. I'm chalking it up to general inexperience with the character for now.

Anywho...
Luma sacrifices itself by getting hit by the Electroshock. Aerial Electroshock too, so you can likely escape Rosalina's wraith. Most go into defensive mode after that, so figure out how her rolls work and learn to time Fsmashes and Electroshocks to KO her.

And her Uspecial is just like the angels, but she lacks the multiple jumps and Electroshock to back it up. If she launches horizontally, we might be able to just shove her away from the ledge with the GOs. There's no hitbox, so make sure you punish somehow.

 

[New_Dumal]

I think you're overreacting bit... It's nowhere near that extreme, but most of the problems you listed feel like they're there. I'm chalking it up to general inexperience with the character for now.
Anywho...
Luma sacrifices itself by getting hit by the Electroshock. Aerial Electroshock too, so you can likely escape Rosalina's wraith. Most go into defensive mode after that, so figure out how her rolls work and learn to time Fsmashes and Electroshocks to KO her.

I agree with you about the recovery. But about the things above :
There's no "Luma sacrifice". Okay, she dies but another one spawn in 7 seconds so it's a very unfair trade.
I played a lot versus Rosalina offline, with a good Rosalina, and I know it's not a impossible MU.
What I said is that is a hard one.
Most Rosalina's go to defensive mode without Luma, but a great player usually can defend yourself well for 7 seconds.
You still got a chance to kill, it's true, but a character that gives you a 7-second opportunity to read and KO don't looks like a okay match-up.Pit and D.Pit are not bad characters, I feel like they have advantage in a lot of MU's and are even with a large number too.
But Rosaluma is bad news for a Pit player. I'm really looking to a secundary if I don't adapt with time.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

A bunch of this is theorycraft cause I don't run into a lot of Rosalina's surprisingly, but here goes.

As has been said, Electroshock Arm can easily kill the Luma, as it sends about a little over half the distance of Final Destination at 0%, meaning you can kill it form any point of FD with one Electroshock Arm, provided you shoot it the right way, and on smaller stages like Yoshi's Island this is even easier. Of course the Electroshock arm is also slow and easily punished. You might want to use more than you would normally but you still need to be smart about it. Preferably you'd use it when its to far from Rosalina to punish you too hard or you'd hit them both at once. I think electrical hitboxes have weird properties on hit which make the hitbox linger longer than normal, this could make the Rosa mess up her punish timing and eat a hit from the Electroshock Arm of she blocks the move with a shield, but that's probably not going to be too reliable as the meta develops.

Theoretically it could be possible to position yourself so that once Luma comes back, you're already hitting it with the Electroshock Arm, KOing it immediately. But that's easier said than done.

His arrows are not very good here because Rosalina's down special neutralizes them and and the Luma blocks the shots for her. If she uses the down special near you then maybe you can punish it, but Dark Pit's projectile is so laggy you have no reason to fire it when she's that close and Rosa really has no reason to not just use her shield if she was that close to you.

Ftilt is also not a great option while Rosa and Luma are together because for some reason it doesn't send Luma anywhere, leaving it right in your face waiting to punish you. Though maybe if you can shield in time this could be a good way to separate the two of them. EDIT: It does seem like you can shield before the Luma attacks you.

KOing Rosalina is also a huge pain. Your best ground kill moves being Fsmash and Usmash aren't too reliable because Rosalina so damn light the killing hits aren't guaranteed. Electroshock can take a while to KO and as said, is super punishable. It's hard to chase her offstage because her recovery is so good. If you choose to chase her offstage she can easily just wait for you to get close enough an then fly right over your head, and now she's back on stage and you've probably used a decent amount of your jumps. Unlike Dark Pit's recovery, hers has a pretty nice arc to it which makes it a bit harder to deal with up close. I haven't gotten to try this yet, but maybe scaring Rosalina toward the blast zone by jumping towards her but then just backing off could be a decent way of dealing with her recovery, as she would have less options of getting back onstage making her recovery easier to punish. It could also be possible that you chase her offstage, and right when you think she's going to use her recovery move, you use your own and get to the stage before she does and punish the landing if she doesn't go straight for the ledge.


EDIT2: Ok here's something new, This is based on one match though so maybe I'm exaggerating, but Rosalina's d-tilt. Its very hard to get back up from ledge if she's spacing her d-tilt right. If you roll on theres a hitbox behind her which will hit you. If you attack you can hit Rosalina but you might not hit the Luma, so you get hit anyway. If you just get up regularly you get hit. If you jump well good job you're above a Rosalina. Get ready for uairs and utilts. provided she didn't jump and f-air you on reaction. Fall and attack and she's too far to get hit by anything and you lose you ledge invincibility, and her dtilt can hit you while sitting on the ledge.

Starting to think our best bet is just timing her out. She can't really chase you and we might just be able to run away from her.

 

[Shadocat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmD7bSgdvzM

Here's a match vs Rosa/Luma for you guys

 

[Kaffei]

Moves that easily knock away Luma: last hit of jab, dash attack, d-tilt, u-tilt, 2nd hit of f-smash, d-air, side-B

 

[Zenpie]

I'm actually really good at beating Rosalina with Pit/Dark Pit. I am, EXTREMELY patient.

 

[LancerStaff]

Me, I charge in with Electroshock to KO Luma whenever it comes out. I get hit for it. Alot.

 

[New_Dumal]

So, everyone agrees that is a MU in Rosalina favor, right ?
Not unplayable, not impossible, but a hard Pit Match-up.(something like 70 Rosaluma -30 Pit, 65 Rosaluma~35 D.Pit at least).

I will try to kill Luma with Eletroshock Arm next time I play against this great Rosalina player, and see what happens.
My problem with Rosalina is killing... She has a amazing recovery, amazing aerials and wins in range (I don't know why) in almost every situation.
Using the eletroshock arm to kill Luma take away a kill move from D.Pit...
I'm really into more tips against her if anyone can give me.

Also, about your video Shadocat, very well played.
But there's a gap between your skill with Dark Pit and the skill of your opponent with Rosalina.
You already played a strong Rosalina?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So, everyone agrees that is a MU in Rosalina favor, right ?
Not unplayable, not impossible, but a hard Pit Match-up.(something like 70 Rosaluma -30 Pit, 65 Rosaluma~35 D.Pit at least).

I will try to kill Luma with Eletroshock Arm next time I play against this great Rosalina player, and see what happens.
My problem with Rosalina is killing... She has a amazing recovery, amazing aerials and wins in range (I don't know why) in almost every situation.
Using the eletroshock arm to kill Luma take away a kill move from D.Pit...
I'm really into more tips against her if anyone can give me.

Also, about your video Shadocat, very well played.
But there's a gap between your skill with Dark Pit and the skill of your opponent with Rosalina.
You already played a strong Rosalina?

believe it or not walking is a very soid option againt rosalina's it basically prevents any stupid shield grabs and your spacing and defence are argubly stronger that way giving to the spqce to react to roll and poke your opponents shield from a safe range. also noticed that when my arrow hits luma i just strait charge for rosalina since it cancels any spacing smashes and luma charge becomes a deadly punish if you hit while its chargeing since it won't do anything while rosalina sitting bait in the charge animation.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Just to bring the discussion forrward i also want to note that rosalina is at a distint disadvantage when pit is below rosalina. you can get some serious punishes apon her landing or pressure her with arrows while shes in the air. come on guys im sure there more too. lets build up pits meta.
i feel pit is a top teir threat with enough tricks to keep it fresh.
pit can frame trap with arrows when an opponent os landing ( either getting hit with an arrow or air doging into the ground so you can punish. i don't know about other people but i also practiced precision arrow shots so i curve the arrow slighly upwards to hit rosa intead of luma as well.
Pit is the beautiful in this game its up to us to prove it guys.
Also if an ike player an IKE can beat a rosa in professional competitive play pit can sure as hell can.

 

[Zano]

This is a really horrible MU, all you need to do is fight an actual rosalina and you can't possibly say otherwise, like holy **** everything you have completely loses to her, I've never played a more frustrating MU in this game.


also it is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT EVER WORTH DOING SIDE B TO TRY TO KILL LUMA DEAR GOD DON'T EVEN THINK THIS IS OK.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This is a really horrible MU, all you need to do is fight an actual rosalina and you can't possibly say otherwise, like holy **** everything you have completely loses to her, I've never played a more frustrating MU in this game.


also it is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT EVER WORTH DOING SIDE B TO TRY TO KILL LUMA DEAR GOD DON'T EVEN THINK THIS IS OK.

umm i faced dabuz and i lost but its not nearly as bad an mu as you make it to be. i even got a stock off.
besides your really just telling us to give up witch means any chances of u figuring out how to challenge a rosalina went right out the window. basically... your dead weight holding the ambitious back.

 

[Zano]

I don't see where getting one stock off somehow justifies it as not horrible but ok. Judging it off wifi is even a bigger mistake because he plays way better outside of wifi, he's lost to ike on wifi before. I'm a realist not dead weight, I understand that this MU is a huuuge struggle because the greatest strength about dark pit is his grab, which luma completely nullifies and causes this to be an extremely uphill battle. Sure you can juggle rosalina well but you're not going to have her in the air as much as she's going to have you playing at her pace.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't see where getting one stock off somehow justifies it as not horrible but ok. Judging it off wifi is even a bigger mistake because he plays way better outside of wifi, he's lost to ike on wifi before. I'm a realist not dead weight, I understand that this MU is a huuuge struggle because the greatest strength about dark pit is his grab, which luma completely nullifies and causes this to be an extremely uphill battle. Sure you can juggle rosalina well but you're not going to have her in the air as much as she's going to have you playing at her pace.

lol opinions arent they great? they fuel society.
but you realisim is not helpufu'l its hindering you told people to give up witch is obvioulsy not the goal of this thread.
lol if it means anything im a pit main not dark pit so.. i guess my options are kina different? dunno really. im only cuz the thread of this in the pit thread directed me to the dark pit pne.
yay useless blathering.

 

[Zano]

I don't even know why I try to converse with anyone who joined in 2014.

Enjoy losing this MU 90% of the time then.

 

[Jaxas]

lol opinions arent they great? they fuel society.
but you realisim is not helpufu'l its hindering you told people to give up witch is obvioulsy not the goal of this thread.
lol if it means anything im a pit main not dark pit so.. i guess my options are kina different? dunno really. im only cuz the thread of this in the pit thread directed me to the dark pit pne.
yay useless blathering.

I don't even know why I try to converse with anyone who joined in 2014.

Enjoy losing this MU 90% of the time then.

Or how about instead of arguing, you try and figure out a way to solve the problem? Saying "This matchup sucks and is unwinnable" is bad (as is antagonizing someone; that's not helpful either), but it's also a starting point to saying "all right so that didn't work, what else is there?".

Now maybe it is a MU like Brawl Ganon VS ICs, but we cannot possibly know that yet, only just over a month into the game.

Anyways, as I'm not a Dark/Pit main, I don't have as good of an idea, but if Luma shuts down your throws (a huge portion of your game), then do you have any throws that also have a hitbox against people not being thrown? Or is there a way to abuse the fact that you have invincibility during a throw, by doing a faster throw for example?
Also, all you need is one solid hit on Luma to kill it and be able to get your grab game back up to full swing, so while Upperdash/Electroshock Arm is probably a bad idea with all its ending lag (unless you just really need it gone/dead NOW, without caring about the consequences?), but things like a spaced Ftilt or even a spaced Fsmash specifically against Luma can get you right back where you want to be.

Also, customs exist. Maybe not on FG, but that's not that huge of a deal, really. Piercing Arrows cut through Luma and hit Rosalina too, and they move faster so she has less time to GP on reaction.

I believe the term is 'hit the lab'? But it works best if a bunch of people do so, and without the bias that you won't find anything.

 

[EndgameN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmD7bSgdvzM

Here's a match vs Rosa/Luma for you guys

Garbage tier Rosalina though. She doesn't once seem to use her nair which is her best approach, and actually uses fully charged luma shots for something other than edgeguarding.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't even know why I try to converse with anyone who joined in 2014.

Enjoy losing this MU 90% of the time then.

SSBU has a much longer respawn time for Luma, from about 8.5 seconds to 13.5 seconds. There is also an update confirmed to come for SSB3D later this month, presumably with the Wii U version's changes. This suddenly makes tanking a hit for KOing Luma much more worth it. Thoughts?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Probably potentially helpful. I'd actually say good spaced attacks could kill Luma unless Rosalina decides to hide behind it in which case pull out piercing arrows they're pretty handy. Electroshock would only ever be worth it if Luma was separated from her and even then I wouldn't try it unless you're confident, although the extended respawn time lets you get more out of your grab game afterwards so take risks if possible, even if you're forced to go up in %.

 

[Zano]

an extra 5 seconds is pretty big so it def helps, but she's not nearly as helpless as people think without luma. It basically just means the MU becomes evenish for that timeframe, so unless you net a kill during that time, luma will just be back.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't even know why I try to converse with anyone who joined in 2014.

Enjoy losing this MU 90% of the time then.

lol amusing. some how i have a lack of knowledge on subjects because my family was to poor for consistant internet till i got a job. some how this affects my abillity to watch competitive streams and commentary at my friends house. iv been lurking this site since early brawl days iv only. found enough time lately to make a account and actually contibute and not tell people to give up. i for one will lose the match up as much as possible before i acomplish what i wish. Because the chances of something changing become 0% once one decides to give up.

 

[Zano]

uhm, ok buddy

 

[New_Dumal]

Okay , more experience with Smash for Wii U now .
After the balance patch , this MU ....: STILL A BAD ONE FOR PIT \ O \

But a bit better .
I can say I figured it out better , but not that is neutral or close of it.
One more time , +2 for Rosalina (in Brawl scale) .
I can accept someone saying is +1 only for Rosalina , but never neutral .

Again , she have more range than Pit .
Overall , she better have air -game ( like ... WTF ? )
Rosalina 's Uair is stupid , just do not try to compete with you Dair without a perfect spacing .
Rosalina Nair is a better approach than tool Pit 's Nair or Fair.
You can not gimp her .
If you did , Rosalina 's player did a serious mistake .

Do not try to foolish yourselves , Rosalina is a great character without Luma .
So many times I already got killed by Rosalina without Luma .
Pit 's best option is walk , spacing FTilt , and try to punish very well with FSmash and USmash to finish the stock .
Pit sideb is a horrible option while Luma is alive , D.Pit sideb is better because can kill Luma , but can not kill Rosalina : /
Guardian Orbitars can make a great job in this MU , killing Rosaluma launch- star moves , or protecting you from air attacks .

I think it's playable , and is completely possible to win this with Pit .
But is hard . Rosalina have the advantage , and I expect no one never doubt this.
If I need get at some conclusion right now , my vote is ( +2: / -2 , -1.8 ( just a bit better ) )

 

[Zano]

Honestly, I find this MU to be 60/40 now (her favor of course) after the patch and with a gc controller, so many elements of it are much easier to deal with and it doesn't feel impossible.

She has more range with luma yeah, but that's a moot point because she outranges any character she wants with that logic.
just don't challenge uair, if she jumps up after you, down b is actually a kinda neato option, but your only goal when she's below you is to get to the ground, and you actually put her in the same situation because she has a hard time landing against your uair as well, only difference is you can't really kill her like she can kill you.

Her nair is dumb but not nearly as dumb as it used to be, nair OoS is a good way to deal with hers.

You can very much gimp her, in fact, it might be one of the only ways you can kill her. People should really realize she is completely vulnerable during her up b screaming for you to dair. if she's near the ledge tho, she might fair or uair you so avoid that before even trying anything on her.

She's an average character without luma and her only really options are to run away from you or bait you into a grab so she can buy time for luma. Her kill power is severely reduced and all you need is one grab to start a series of mixups to deal some nice damage.

Ftilt is super punishable. even if you space it, there's enough lag that you will get hit after, but it's decent at poking luma. Fsmash is most useful in this MU for killing luma but you'll have to be prepared to take an usmash from rosa after so never do it at high %. Side b shouldn't be killing ANYBODY, and if you do the air version where you hit jump then immediately side b, it will be somewhat safter at taking out luma, but I wouldn't do that unless she's somewhat near the ledge because luma won't fly offstage otherwise. usmash is kinda nice in this MU too if you can fake her out with an empty jump to bait an airdodge.

 

[SirPulse]

just a few things ive picked up in my matches against boba, one of the regions top players

ive found that rosa is one of the only characters that can gimp DP, and to just not go offstage against one when your ahead, it's to easy to get dair'd or stage spiked and not worth the risk. im 0-3 against this guy in tourny because of this, its always last stock last hit last game, but could be alot better if i wasnt dying at 30%
upsmash has good range in front of it, but only against tall characters, great kill move against rosa.
dash attack eats through luma and guts rosa afterwards.
electoshock activates on luma, so its good if they are right next to eachother (touching eachother) but not if luma is in front of rosa, gives her a free hit.
definitely dont want to be going to battlefield or similar stages, the platforms benefit her alot more for sure.
dont try to punish with fmash, alot of rosa's moves have little to no ending lag, and your fsmash will always be punished if whiffed.