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VS Little Mac
- Thread starter Neo Zero
- Start date
FlareHabanero
Banned via Warnings
Don't use Monado Arts.
I'm serious, every Monado Art will punish Shulk in someway. Jump, Buster, and Smash decreases your defenses, meaning Mac's hard hitting attacks will sting even more. Buster reducing knockback is also counter productive since you need to send Mac in the air to neuter him. Shield may help avoid a stray KO, but racking up damage is never good. Speed is possibly the only viable one since you can try playing his game, but even then Little Mac can still easily slaughter you and the reduced damage does hinder Shulk.
Instead, stick with Vanilla and try to get Mac airborne. He becomes a lot more neutered when you can bombard him with the neutral aerial and forward aerial attacks, and if done right you can sweep him off the stage. As for getting him in the air, you're main tools are the tilts. Up tilt however is more situational due to the angle.
I'm serious, every Monado Art will punish Shulk in someway. Jump, Buster, and Smash decreases your defenses, meaning Mac's hard hitting attacks will sting even more. Buster reducing knockback is also counter productive since you need to send Mac in the air to neuter him. Shield may help avoid a stray KO, but racking up damage is never good. Speed is possibly the only viable one since you can try playing his game, but even then Little Mac can still easily slaughter you and the reduced damage does hinder Shulk.
Instead, stick with Vanilla and try to get Mac airborne. He becomes a lot more neutered when you can bombard him with the neutral aerial and forward aerial attacks, and if done right you can sweep him off the stage. As for getting him in the air, you're main tools are the tilts. Up tilt however is more situational due to the angle.
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Berserker.
:^)
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 18,990
Vision counter can be a bit double edged. On one hand, countering Mac does damage and knockback and may possibly knock him off stage. On the other hand, it fills up his KO meter very quickly
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Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Nice input Soul & Berserk.
As for the input I give, I'd keep him juggled airborne with Uthrows constantly anytime a grab opportunity is open, take it. If you both are in Neutral Game & you can't get him off-stage, opt to at least Dthrow, Uthrow, or Bthrow when near a ledge for an edge-guard shut down on his less-than-average recovery with an aerial of your choice for his telegraphed SideB. When he's upon landing you can try & throw out the anti-air juggle attempting Utilt, especially if platforms are involved where Shulk's U-options shine incredibly; the U-tilt if whiffs his AirDodge can frame trap him & grab his bad landing.
As for the input I give, I'd keep him juggled airborne with Uthrows constantly anytime a grab opportunity is open, take it. If you both are in Neutral Game & you can't get him off-stage, opt to at least Dthrow, Uthrow, or Bthrow when near a ledge for an edge-guard shut down on his less-than-average recovery with an aerial of your choice for his telegraphed SideB. When he's upon landing you can try & throw out the anti-air juggle attempting Utilt, especially if platforms are involved where Shulk's U-options shine incredibly; the U-tilt if whiffs his AirDodge can frame trap him & grab his bad landing.
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darknight550
Smash Rookie
Mostly what everyone said, but good lil macs are definitely tough to deal with. I find gimping them is probably the most effective way to KO a mac.
relaxedexcorcist
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2007
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- 984
- NNID
- relaxed
- 3DS FC
- 4167-4486-3541
Keep in mind you can't counter the K.O punch. He'll just hit you anyway. Not even seeing the future can save you from that thing.
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Starfall11
Smash Journeyman
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- 3DS FC
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Gimping is certainly most effective. Versus Little Mac, I find it best to play defensively with Vanilla Shulk. After racking up some damage, switch to Jump and start going for gimps. Speed has its uses if you're skilled enough with it. But you really need to be skilled with speed, exploiting pivot grabs and SH Nair. Matching him at his own game is extremely difficult if the little mac you're playing is very skilled. Which is why Vanilla and Jump help best to gimp.
Smash has some great uses with Vision to seal a stock quickly. But it is extremely risky.
Smash has some great uses with Vision to seal a stock quickly. But it is extremely risky.
eWaltz
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2014
- Messages
- 17
- NNID
- Waltz.exe
This is definitely great to know. I haven't fought many Macs so far, but a friend is maining him. I don't want to get hit with a KO just for relying on a counter.
Same as above. I did get a counter on a Mac's fully charged neutral special once, though. It was the fastest I've seen anyone fly so far. That felt nice.
Berserker.
:^)
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 18,990
Using counter at around 80%+ or maybr 75%+ is probably the best way to use it
because it will probably kill him anyway
MAYBE speed is actually good against Mac. We don't wanna rack up to much damage. Let's be honest here..... Also, it's Shulk's best proc for grabbing. It's also pretty decent to use in gimping. We don't need the damage. We just want to grab and aim for the gimp
because it will probably kill him anyway
MAYBE speed is actually good against Mac. We don't wanna rack up to much damage. Let's be honest here..... Also, it's Shulk's best proc for grabbing. It's also pretty decent to use in gimping. We don't need the damage. We just want to grab and aim for the gimp
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ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Shield isn't bad if you Roll-cancel Grab.
The grab range is deceptively long (well for the expectation of Shields grab range). Shield is slow so it kinda draws Mac in because well you don't move quickly to him...Then wham Roll Canceled Grab.
I don't like fighting Mac. He's really Binary in that his Ground game is thrifty and then there is almost no air game. You are fighting someone who basically lacks half a kit so one aspect of the kit is juiced up on roids.
For me I just look for the grab anyway I can get it. Mac's *supposed* to be overpowered on the ground, when Im stringing a Mac I know he's goofing because Mac's entire thing is trading everyones flexibility for a ridiculous ground game. With that in mind, getting mac the hell off the ground is priority one. Im currently trying to see my options out of a U-throw. With the way Air dodge has been changed, I believe outside of a >B we may be able to continuously grab because of Mac's lack of aerial retaliation so long as he hasn't Side special'd. Which may be advantageous even if does do that I assume Monado Speed can catch it.
The grab range is deceptively long (well for the expectation of Shields grab range). Shield is slow so it kinda draws Mac in because well you don't move quickly to him...Then wham Roll Canceled Grab.
I don't like fighting Mac. He's really Binary in that his Ground game is thrifty and then there is almost no air game. You are fighting someone who basically lacks half a kit so one aspect of the kit is juiced up on roids.
For me I just look for the grab anyway I can get it. Mac's *supposed* to be overpowered on the ground, when Im stringing a Mac I know he's goofing because Mac's entire thing is trading everyones flexibility for a ridiculous ground game. With that in mind, getting mac the hell off the ground is priority one. Im currently trying to see my options out of a U-throw. With the way Air dodge has been changed, I believe outside of a >B we may be able to continuously grab because of Mac's lack of aerial retaliation so long as he hasn't Side special'd. Which may be advantageous even if does do that I assume Monado Speed can catch it.
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FlareHabanero
Banned via Warnings
I forgot to mention that Shulk is not safe with hitting Mac away with Air Slash when trying to recover. Mac has deceptively good options to keep the opponent off the edge, most notably his down smash which not only hits low enough to hit people hanging but also has super armor, meaning the tactic of swatting someone away with Air Slash is not full proof. However, you can't space yourself either since you need to get on the edge due to the poor horizontal movement Air Slash has, and if you try activating Jump to get you a boost you're risking Mac smashing in your face due to the reduced defenses. It's a notable lose-lose situation I noticed from experience.
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Hokori
Great King of Evil
And with that being said, it's important to mix up your get up options after you get hold of the ledge (it always is, but it's especially important against Mac) since our options are limited to begin with. Trying to ledge-drop F-Air Mac often is basically asking to get smacked. I've seen that happen to a few players.
Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Something I thought about pertaining to Little Mac since they get Counter-happy when they land from fear of landing punishes e.g. we Nair scooping them up or Fsmash. .but with utilizing Vision against LM the same way so-to-speak.
If LM uses one of his smashes with Super Armor & we Vision Counter that move, will the "Zone" slow down LM entirely including the active Super Armor frame window? Tiny info like that makes me want to avoid punishing with VIsion against his fast & strong smash moves if the "Zone" did in fact linger his SA window.
I was reminded of this from reading posts down here about mixing up our get-up option on stage & recovering. For a ledge-jump Vision option to get back on stage cancels not only the jump entirely, but slow-falls us down with the Vision already started up to predict a read from LM's attack. Because if that said attack we countered was one of his smash moves (probably Dsmash, Fsmash uppercut, or Usmash) that had SA frames, then punishing it wouldn't be as rewarding. It'd be something we should avoid using given the situation & % damage trading.
If LM uses one of his smashes with Super Armor & we Vision Counter that move, will the "Zone" slow down LM entirely including the active Super Armor frame window? Tiny info like that makes me want to avoid punishing with VIsion against his fast & strong smash moves if the "Zone" did in fact linger his SA window.
I was reminded of this from reading posts down here about mixing up our get-up option on stage & recovering. For a ledge-jump Vision option to get back on stage cancels not only the jump entirely, but slow-falls us down with the Vision already started up to predict a read from LM's attack. Because if that said attack we countered was one of his smash moves (probably Dsmash, Fsmash uppercut, or Usmash) that had SA frames, then punishing it wouldn't be as rewarding. It'd be something we should avoid using given the situation & % damage trading.
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erico9001
You must find your own path to the future.
Lol this. Definitely.
This is all great advice. Something I read on another part of Smashboards, but not for just Shulk, is that you should stay on the edge rather than trying to approach little mac who is in the middle. Let him come to you. This coincides with what Starfall said about defensive playing and gimping.
Let him come to you and play defensively rather than aggressively. When you get the chance, try to send him off the stage and slice him with an aerial.
DrShankums
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
- Messages
- 47
I find that smash and speed works the best against little mac. I ignore the % and focus on taking stocks. 90% of little mac games start with me switching to smash and attempting gimps. The reduced damage and extra KB is exactly what I want in the matchup, and with a throw off the ledge and and fair they usually can't recover. Maybe it's just the scrubby little macs I play though.
Claxus
Smash Apprentice
The good old N-air spacing works wonders. Just throw them out a lot and Little Macs will tend to run into them. Also use B-air and F-air sparingly. They're unsafe but completely outrange him, and if it's not too expected, it's pretty hard to punish them on reaction at their max range.
The general good tactic is just playing defensive and spacing him out, and don't get impatient. Mac has an advantage in his sheer speed and power that can really put the pressure on Shulk, but that's also his downside. He has to come to you some day. Preferably, play near the ledge if you have a good lead. Once he's launched off-stage, Shulk has a very easy time gimping Mac with that giant F-air, so most of the time all you need to do is get him off stage once to get a KO.
I think Vision is fairly important in this match-up. Not necessarily getting kills with it or abusing it, but establish that you have a powerful counter, and make them think twice about laying rushdown. And if you're at an edge, a good read with his forward-Vision can send Mac flying off behind you off-stage into really easy gimps.
When Mac's in the air, U-tilt, U-smash, or U-air are great options. They'll keep him in the air where he's near-helpless, and if he uses his counter, he'll likely whiff past above you and you can punish it.
Side note, if they're of the variety that loves to dash at you and roll away constantly, you can usually smack them in the face with a dash attack, especially with Speed. And the variety that rolls around you a lot can be easily punished with Shulk's awesome D-smash.
Jump - Good at pestering Little Mac due to the high air control. Best for some fast-fall spacing with N-airs, or trying to bait him with empty landings. Not good to use this very offensively, but it gives you tons of breathing room against Mac to take the battle to your own pace.
Speed - Step up your ground game to keep up with him. Lets you space more effectively with N-airs, and you can shake him up with some grabs. Preferably pivot grabs. Around the halfway point of the stage, grabbing them with a pivot grab, sliding for a second, then B-throw, will get them off stage. Pretty big deal.
Shield - Kind of a lifesaver against someone who has lightning-fast killing/launching moves. Can reduce the threshold his KO punch will KO a little bit.
Buster - Try at your own risk. Can be very deadly to you, but if Little Mac tries to capitalize on its downside, you can use it as an aggro-drawing tool. Honestly not too important though, because launching Little Mac is even better. I would mostly try it if I desperately need a comeback.
Smash - The early gimps are real. Throws, F-tilt, and F-air with Smash can really set-up some early kills.
The general good tactic is just playing defensive and spacing him out, and don't get impatient. Mac has an advantage in his sheer speed and power that can really put the pressure on Shulk, but that's also his downside. He has to come to you some day. Preferably, play near the ledge if you have a good lead. Once he's launched off-stage, Shulk has a very easy time gimping Mac with that giant F-air, so most of the time all you need to do is get him off stage once to get a KO.
I think Vision is fairly important in this match-up. Not necessarily getting kills with it or abusing it, but establish that you have a powerful counter, and make them think twice about laying rushdown. And if you're at an edge, a good read with his forward-Vision can send Mac flying off behind you off-stage into really easy gimps.
When Mac's in the air, U-tilt, U-smash, or U-air are great options. They'll keep him in the air where he's near-helpless, and if he uses his counter, he'll likely whiff past above you and you can punish it.
Side note, if they're of the variety that loves to dash at you and roll away constantly, you can usually smack them in the face with a dash attack, especially with Speed. And the variety that rolls around you a lot can be easily punished with Shulk's awesome D-smash.
Jump - Good at pestering Little Mac due to the high air control. Best for some fast-fall spacing with N-airs, or trying to bait him with empty landings. Not good to use this very offensively, but it gives you tons of breathing room against Mac to take the battle to your own pace.
Speed - Step up your ground game to keep up with him. Lets you space more effectively with N-airs, and you can shake him up with some grabs. Preferably pivot grabs. Around the halfway point of the stage, grabbing them with a pivot grab, sliding for a second, then B-throw, will get them off stage. Pretty big deal.
Shield - Kind of a lifesaver against someone who has lightning-fast killing/launching moves. Can reduce the threshold his KO punch will KO a little bit.
Buster - Try at your own risk. Can be very deadly to you, but if Little Mac tries to capitalize on its downside, you can use it as an aggro-drawing tool. Honestly not too important though, because launching Little Mac is even better. I would mostly try it if I desperately need a comeback.
Smash - The early gimps are real. Throws, F-tilt, and F-air with Smash can really set-up some early kills.
MHFsilver
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2014
- Messages
- 9
- 3DS FC
- 2878-9786-7166
Most of my For Glory matches have been against either the type of Little Mac that just wants to run in and fight or the kind that run it, hit a few times and run.
The strategy I use for them despite which Mac I find is to get to the ledge, most Little Mac players will rush you in an attempt you push you off. Shulk has the nice feature to be able to grab and hold his hitbox for a bit so if you grab BEFORE a Little Mac gets right in your face, you have a chance to grab him. Simply through him off then use Shulk's N-Air and to keep the Little Mac at bay off the side. Most of the time they waste their side smash in an attempt to grab the ledge and just fall to their death.
As for the Macs that run and gun, you can still run and grab then and toss them around and attack them pretty easily to get them off the edge. All you have to do to best a Mac is to get him off the edge seeing as Little Mac's air game isn't good compared to him on the ground. As mentioned in the 2nd post, don't use arts. Most of the time you'll end up screwing yourself with the decreases you'll get. Just try to lay on the pressure once he's off the edge and you'll more than likely win.
I realize this might have not been explained the best but I hope someone gets what I'm saying here lol
The strategy I use for them despite which Mac I find is to get to the ledge, most Little Mac players will rush you in an attempt you push you off. Shulk has the nice feature to be able to grab and hold his hitbox for a bit so if you grab BEFORE a Little Mac gets right in your face, you have a chance to grab him. Simply through him off then use Shulk's N-Air and to keep the Little Mac at bay off the side. Most of the time they waste their side smash in an attempt to grab the ledge and just fall to their death.
As for the Macs that run and gun, you can still run and grab then and toss them around and attack them pretty easily to get them off the edge. All you have to do to best a Mac is to get him off the edge seeing as Little Mac's air game isn't good compared to him on the ground. As mentioned in the 2nd post, don't use arts. Most of the time you'll end up screwing yourself with the decreases you'll get. Just try to lay on the pressure once he's off the edge and you'll more than likely win.
I realize this might have not been explained the best but I hope someone gets what I'm saying here lol