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Vs Falcon of FD

Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
I had an issue with a Falcon last week at a tournament. He took me out solidly on fd first game, I took him out solidly the second game in ys, and then we had a really close game on fd last match but he took like 100% control on his last stock.

I think that banning fd wouldn't do me any good as dl is my worst stage and he'd probably opt for that.

Since fighting falcons on fd seems inevitable, what should I do? Snuff out his approach with jab and Dtilt? Go defensive and try to get shield grabs?
 

Wafflesaurus

Smash Cadet
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Sep 23, 2013
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Wafflesaurus
He probably couldn't take you to FD on game 3 since he beat you there game 1 (DSR)
It really depends on your play style. We can' really tell you what you are doing wrong without watching your games or knowing a little more. Why are you struggling on FD? Is he outpunishing you? Is he beating you in the neutral? Are you dropping your combos/tech chases? Is he getting in on you easily? etc.
Marth should probably play this match defensively since he can stop almost any approach from Falcon by fairing him or side-b etc (although you do need to threaten him every once in a while with things like d tilt and taking away his dash dance space).
If your biggest struggle in the match is the stage then just ban FD and DL while stage striking . He will only be able to take you to one of those afterwards and you should be able to take game 3.
 

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
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There's Yoshi's, Battlefield, FoD, and Stadium too so you know dude you didn't have to play on FD at all if you didn't want to because of how striking works.

FD is inevitable in a Bo5 but even then marth does fine there.

You want to play the MU on the ground and be very confident holding your space and dash dancing well. Open him up with grab and poke his retreat with running down tilt.

Crouch cancel/asdi down/DI down whenever possible if you're on the ground. In the air or being grabbed DI down and away.

Grab. Grab. Grab. Grab. Grab. Learn how to get grabs.

Go get on the PPMD/Dr. Peepee marth thread and search for posts by him and read them.

Understand AND apply them, become god (have substantial improvement). Two tips in general don't jump unless you have to, literally just don't do it, and don't swing first.
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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You can wall him out with fairs and tipper dtilt/ftilt/jab depending on the situation. You also have the DD and the grab, and all the techchasing that comes with it. Late SHFLL'd uair is great for starting juggles too if you get a read (depending on % you can also grab from it). Just remember he's waiting for you to jump or over-commit to something in the air. All your attacks have to be reaction based and carefully spaced. Once falcon gets inside he's a real pain in the dlck. If falcon is going to uair/nair you offstage, try DI'ing up and slightly away (or up and away at low%). You won't die, but he won't be able to get the dj aerial. You'll also be much higher up when offstage (as opposed to DI'ing down and away), which increases your recovery options immensely. Survival DI at too low of a percent makes you eat double knees left and right.
 
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Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
Lol got beat by another Falcon. I always end up losing to a Falcon 2-1

I guess I just need to get better
 

Wafflesaurus

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Wafflesaurus
How did the set go? Which stage did you strike to and where did you guys counter pick to?
 
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I thought the common rule set was you cannot go back to a stage you won on for your counterpick. If you lost on FD against Falcon, but Falcon choose FD for his counterpick I surprised that happened. I am probably wrong on it and its something that applies to best of 5 only. Don't remember.
I think that banning fd wouldn't do me any good as dl is my worst stage and he'd probably opt for that.

Since fighting falcons on fd seems inevitable, what should I do? Snuff out his approach with jab and Dtilt? Go defensive and try to get shield grabs?
I agree with your assessment on stage choice. From what I know there is never a reason to go to dreamland and its the last stage you want Marth to go towards. FoD/YS are his best stages overall with BF/FD being the next best alternative.

I think the right move choices are in your mind, but maybe not quite the way to approach using them. Trying to go for shield grabs does seems like the most efficient strategy. When people make more mistakes you will get more chances to get a shieldgrab, but as people play better they can attack your shield without getting grabbed. If it happens, do it. But do not solely rely upon that idea as your go to strategy.

One method I think works universally with Marth is the idea of trying to work your opponent into a disadvantage. Imagine CF is running around on FD with half the stage in space. You go forward when say he dashes backs and try to Dtilt. You just gained part of the stage. Not a huge achievement, but all of these things can slowly go towards winning. With your taken space Falcon has less stage to run around on and you can try chasing him down until he ran out of stage to run away.

As a person runs out of stage they are going to have to do something at times which means they are more provoked into attacking. They committed to some action which depending upon your placement when they do it means you could dash back (might not always be achievable) and try to punish their aerial landing lag (or say a whiffed grab). Or, you can try to attack CF's position when he runs out of stage with say SH Nair or grab or try to take a bit more space with Dtilt.

Overall, I think you are simply going to have to assess a situation when something changes (you get put in shield, you get hit, you get a untipper Dtilt, etc.) and make a best choice based on the information you have.

Hmm... Maybe this is not the right suggestion to give.
 

Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
Yeah my memory is a bit fuzzy, it might've not been fd that first match
 

Melons

Smash Rookie
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May 29, 2015
Messages
2
I had an issue with a Falcon last week at a tournament. He took me out solidly on fd first game, I took him out solidly the second game in ys, and then we had a really close game on fd last match but he took like 100% control on his last stock.

I think that banning fd wouldn't do me any good as dl is my worst stage and he'd probably opt for that.

Since fighting falcons on fd seems inevitable, what should I do? Snuff out his approach with jab and Dtilt? Go defensive and try to get shield grabs?
Whenever I find myself outmatched by falcon on FD, which is a pretty regular thing, I make sure to play a bit more defensively, focus a lot more on my dash dance, and fish for missed side Bs and grabs out of dash on falcons part so that I can respond with an up tilt or a grab of my own. Marth owns the air, not the ground. FD is all ground.
 

AirFair

Marth tho
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Against Falcon, I wouldn't want to give him room to run around. The smaller the stages, the better I think, which make YS and FoD good for you. It's been said before, but stay grounded and don't let him get up in your face without side B or a grab to stop him. The two characters have really good combos on the other, but Marth has an advantage only in the punish game, which means that you are going to want to stay calm in neutral and try and techchase off of fthrows at really low percents. Don't uthrow till maybe 30-40% because if he techs you will be at a disadvantage framewise I think.
 

beetlebomber

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Even though Falcon might want to take you to FD, you should make him feel bad for letting you take him there. I'm going to go through a few reasons that could make FD a good marth falcon stage.

Master tech chasing him at low percent, he has poor tech rolls and get up options. I've tech chased falcons to the ledge at 50% and up-B'ed them off stage into an edgeguard.

Since falcon has poor OoS options, you can abuse him pretty easily. Fair dtilt at max range will make him jump, WD back, or roll every time. Lots of falcons panic buffer roll during tech chases and when they are getting pressured.

Falcon players all love to approach with nair. Every Marth needs to start CC grabbing these by eating the first hit. It's so free and you can start tech chasing. At around 60 SH Uair starts a juggle to death. Watch IB and Dart. They are both good at this. When they switch to approaching with knee, you can shield grab this out of dash dance. That's what I go for, with might not be optimal.

Falcons will try to grab or knee you on a whiffed dtilt so make sure IASA and try to react to that.

Marth's gimp game vs. Falcon at the ledge is so good, especially on FD. If you shield grab falcon or tech chase him to the corner, down throw dtilt works wonders. You can cover everything with dtilt turn around grab. Kira said he woulds make a video of some gimp setup Marth vs. Falcon, but one really good one is down throw > WD back > fair > up-b. I've heard people call this "the mew2king." It covers DJ sweet spot to the ledge and stage spikes them for trying it. Works well after you've conditioned the DJ sweetspot with down throw dtilt at the ledge.

This matchup, like many of marth's matchups, only tip into his favor when you have a good punish game and have good DI so their punish doesn't zero to death you back. I hope this gives you some ideas on how to body falcon.

One thing I want to see a Marth do when they are getting comboed is to side b falcon out of knee or upair off stage and DJ dair him. It would probably work because they would be DI-ing into you attack. Worth a shot.

As always, watch videos of good players that make falcon look like a low tier in this matchup. Surprisingly, I don't think there are videos of pp in this MU. So I would say watch m2k/moon/ppu/dart/IB.
 
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1000g2g3g4g800999

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Jul 21, 2012
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You're both looking for similar things on this stage. If your opponent takes to the air, juggle them or get a hit like uair or fair or single hit nair that can lead into a grab. Primary approach tools for both of you are grab (though you have dtilt as well). Both of you may also try approaching with or controlling space with nair, and in your case, it's stronger here than in other MUs. AC nair is very strong vs Falcon compared to other characters in the higher tiers.

Again, similarities between the characters, both of you will want to dashdance approaches that aren't overshot, and shield to immediate WD OoS when they come in closer (unless CC is available, it always hit against first hit of nair from either character).

Fthrow is better for tech-chasing than dthrow, as a general rule, but unlike dthrow, it doesn't knock down at zero (dthrow becomes a stronger option when your back is closer to the edge).

An AC nair in place can cover most jumps towards you, and is effective vs grab approaches, but be prepared to drift backwards, and then shield DI back in if he tries to punish the nair. Dashing forward after this can counter attempts to run in and grab, and isn't as big a commitment as wavedashing, spotdodging, or rolling to escape. Alternatively, ac nair with jabs and dtilt makes a great wall, and you can easily space for position with Dancing Blade similarly fast, but if it causes falcon to land shortly after hitting, it tends to be a worse option.

This AC nair + otherstuff wall not only beats many approach options, but leaves you with enough time to punish or safely space should falcon try to maneuver around it altogether. If falcon doesn't try to punish/move around it or get behind you either watch what he's doing to pick up on what he likes to do, or push forward and whatever pace you can comfortably. More likely than not, you can get a lot of Falcons to play in shield more with these tactics, but this can be beaten out with well timed punishes, and with falcon's tilts (or fsmash).

Falcon's super fast and has a good grab game against you, so try to stick to lower commitment moves and keep barely out of his reach either framewise or spacing wise.

While dtilt is amazing, if Falcon buffers a roll away out of dtilt on shield, don't even bother trying to punish, at least not directly.

While Falcon's dash dance is amazing, he sticks his foot back a little at the beginning of the dash and the hurtbox stays there. When he dashes back from a dash forward, his foot starts from a similar horizontal position to his head. You have a dtilt, exploit this, and take stage position.

Don't be afraid to counter. Falcons love aerials. Even still, this is something you might want to do more against attempts to space well where Falcon's trying to cover whiff punishes.

If Falcon tries to nair in place or retreating (or any aerial really), this makes it easier to land moves normally riskier in the neutral, including fsmash, which will knock him down, and possibly make your opponent feel stupid. Refrain from using this move outside of tech-chases, combos and edgeguards until you can confidently use it on reaction to knowing where Falcon will end up if he goes forwards, or otherwise only when he isn't moving forward.



-I'd say mostly abuse AC nair/jab/dtilt wall and shield+wd OoS when you can't grab immediately are the biggest things for neutral, along with trying to dash forward towards Falcon with his dash back (for trot can avoid his JC grab back towards you, or you might try shield stop nair in place-> continued wall. If he's slightly farther away, run-crouch dtilt is an option, but it's harder to get this when his DD is good, shield stop grab or dancing blade are acceptable when he turns around before you can dtilt). Nair a little less if Falcon tries to just space his tilts against you or start hit nair as you're coming down. Try to react off of what Falcon does when you apply pressure (or limit his methods of approach). Throw tech-chases at zero are escapable if Falcon isn't close to the edge. CC is really strong. Be ready to shield any OoS options Falcon puts out if you can't dash away safely in time. More than anything else, try to avoid getting grabbed. Space yourself and position hitboxes to avoid this as best you can.
 
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