Villager Match-up discussion

[Berserker.]

Discuss vs

 

[Makai Wars]

Thanks for linking us here from the Villager boards!

Uh, I'll start;
Shulk's weakness to ranged characters is really evident in this MU, not only can Vill space with the Rocket projectile, he also has his ranged fair/bair (which Shulk can easily be hit from with a SH).

I've noticed many a Shulk try to get in with Speed form and a bunch of fairs/nairs, and while these do out prioritize Villager's own fair, Shulks are very committed to the air approach, which simply means we hang out in shield and wait to grab. I haven't noticed many Shulks come in with a dash grab, which is probably what you should do in this MU-- a lot of approach mixups since Villager is very weak to rushdown.

Buster Monado makes Villager's trees easy work, however a Villager can just pull a Dabuz and run away for 11 seconds if he NEEDS to, the same applies to Smash. Smash attacks are your friend, since Villager can't do much about a Dsmash or FSmash, since they both out range everything he has .

Offstage is where Villager shines, save for the rare occasion you knock villager off with a bunch of fairs. When recovering agains villager, it might not be a bad idea to act like Mac and use your counter to return to safety, and if you an help it, don't recover directly under the ledge because Shulk is one of the biggest suckers for a bowling ball.

So if you're Shulk and wanna win, I advise speed form mixup approaches , good Smash attack game, and staying centerstage since Villager wins offstage.

Also respect the tree.

My final thoughts on this MU are somewhere between 55:45 to 60:40 in Villager's favor.

 

[Antonykun]

This is going to sound dumb, but idk Shulk, how does he get in without being punished bby a roll or something?.
Shulk is strong because he can sit on Villager's worst range and harass her from there.
Smash and Shield arts don't do much as she can camp for the short time it takes them to wear off
Speed is evil as it shreds her game plan of limiting his opinions
Buster Shulk that spaces at Villager's worst range can be a problem.
Jump... uhhhhg can I play customs?
Shulk has a poor disadvantage right?
Maybe Villager can exploit that?
I can't give an mu score but I think Villager may barely win the MU unless speed Shulk is that good at breaking zones.

 

[Berserker.]

I guess we need some footage of the sorts so here's (a slightly old) one:

Speed art is REALLY good for breaking through villager's zone. Spamming n-airs or f-airs his way through slingshots, and gyroids aren't his only options. Shulk's dash to shield is great. He can use that too for going against Villager's wall of projectiles. Jump art is... alright but gyroids are probably going to halt his aerial approaches. Honestly, I wouldn't use this art for on-stage purposes against Villager. I still think it could work well against Villager's camping but it isn't as good as speed. Buster art should only be used once you're at mid-range against the Villager. From that distance, you can harass Villager quite easily. Smash art and shield art are situational. Shulk only uses Smash for KO'ing and shield for living. That's obvious.

Shulk's disadvantage is poor, but the only aspect of it that Villager can actually exploit is his recovery, but that becomes less of an issue with jump art. His disadvantaged state becomes exploited hard if the opponent has good frame data, and excellent combo ability (Hence why Fox and Sheik are bad for Shulk)

Shulk's off-stage game is fantastic but I don't think Villager's going to get gimped by jump anytime soon since Villager's recovery is too good. He could get killed off-stage though if he's at a high percent with one nice f-air. Villager's off stage game is great. Shulk's recovery being easy to gimp, Shulk will need jump art ready and I'd recovery high with Shulk instead of low.

As for the tree, Shulk's f-smash lasts REALLY long if he whacks the tree with his f-smash due to its insane hitlag. Also, you'd try to keep the tree up instead of actually chopping it down. You DO NOT want to chop the tree down against Shulk. His counter is likely to kill you if he manages to counter the tree.

So from what I know, Shulk can handle Villager's camping with speed art quite well. Jump art is probably best used when he needs to recover or when he's going for an edgeguard attempt. Buster will be used when Shulk is at mid-range against Villager. Villager tries to run? Just keep dash to shielding or space n-air carefully against his projectiles. Villager's sourspot is at mid-range and Shulk loves mid-range. Speed art can get you into that position. Villager's camping still proves to be quite pesky though, and his off-stage game could really mess up Shulk's recovery (unless jump art is factored)

Regardless of what I said, I'm not giving a score yet. Might be leaning to even, but I'm still thinking. Oh, and imo

Edit: Jump art is hard to edgeguard. Although Villager's camping is great and all, it's not impossible to break through (ESPECIALLY with speed). Especially with buster art. Shulk's range is also amazing for this match up. I'd saaaaay +1 for Shulk?

 

[Antonykun]

I guess we need some footage of the sorts so here's (a slightly old) one:

Speed art is REALLY good for breaking through villager's zone. Spamming n-airs or f-airs his way through slingshots, and gyroids aren't his only options. Shulk's dash to shield is great. He can use that too for going against Villager's wall of projectiles. Jump art is... alright but gyroids are probably going to halt his aerial approaches. Honestly, I wouldn't use this art for on-stage purposes against Villager. I still think it could work well against Villager's camping but it isn't as good as speed. Buster art should only be used once you're at mid-range against the Villager. From that distance, you can harass Villager quite easily. Smash art and shield art are situational. Shulk only uses Smash for KO'ing and shield for living. That's obvious.

Shulk's disadvantage is poor, but the only aspect of it that Villager can actually exploit is his recovery, but that becomes less of an issue with jump art. His disadvantaged state becomes exploited hard if the opponent has good frame data, and excellent combo ability (Hence why Fox and Sheik are bad for Shulk)

Shulk's off-stage game is fantastic but I don't think Villager's going to get gimped by jump anytime soon since Villager's recovery is too good. He could get killed off-stage though if he's at a high percent with one nice f-air. Villager's off stage game is great. Shulk's recovery being easy to gimp, Shulk will need jump art ready and I'd recovery high with Shulk instead of low.

As for the tree, Shulk's f-smash lasts REALLY long if he whacks the tree with his f-smash due to its insane hitlag. Also, you'd try to keep the tree up instead of actually chopping it down. You DO NOT want to chop the tree down against Shulk. His counter is likely to kill you if he manages to counter the tree.

So from what I know, Shulk can handle Villager's camping with speed art quite well. Jump art is probably best used when he needs to recover or when he's going for an edgeguard attempt. Buster will be used when Shulk is at mid-range against Villager. Villager tries to run? Just keep dash to shielding or space n-air carefully against his projectiles. Villager's sourspot is at mid-range and Shulk loves mid-range. Speed art can get you into that position. Villager's camping still proves to be quite pesky though, and his off-stage game could really mess up Shulk's recovery (unless jump art is factored)

Regardless of what I said, I'm not giving a score yet. Might be leaning to even, but I'm still thinking. Oh, and imo

Well I for one would like to notify @ John12346 and @zeezee that we're using this video to help understand the MU.
This may sound like confirmation bias but it seemed that when Zee got a lead on John# Villager was close and personal to Shulk using her great close range buttons to rack up amazing percents. Ofcourse this video is half a month after the game came out for the wii or so. I noticed how delicious Shulk looks offstage, oh so very edguardable

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah, more opinions would be noice and welcomed

 

[John12346]

I don't really play Shulk anymore but my impressions on the customs matchup, are that you do need to be careful in neutral, as Shulk does actually have answers to a few of your things. Lloid/Pushy Lloid both will be met with many, many Power Visions which can kill Villager super early, or Dash Vision which can end up punishing Villager from a distance. Speed Monado can also be used to close the gap surprisingly quickly, even through maximum range Fair/Bair spacing.

You also can't land with Turnips like you usually do in most matchups, either, because Shulk's Utilt is unholy large and beats it handily. You do need to watch out for Shulk's landing traps, they are super dangerous.

And as far as edgeguarding, you would think it would be easy to get him since he has a very linear recovery(just a midair jump and basically a Dolphin Slash that doesn't autosnap), but I can definitely affirm that Shulk has way too much room to negotiate Villager's(or anyone's, really) edgeguard attempts when he's got his Jump Monado activated. It's definitely a lot harder for you guys to get him than what is apparent at face value.

Lastly, you just need to be wary about how you hide from Shulk behind your Counter Timber(tree or sapling). He can hit a good distance past it with Dtilt/Fsmash/UpB without him actually getting hit himself.

 

[erico9001]

I was going to do a write up about customs, but so far I'll just put down my notes for killing trees. These were tested outside of training mode, so freshness/staling is involved.

Killing normal tree:
Jump/Vanilla:
1 uncharged D-smash
2 uncharged or charged F-smashes
3 F-tilts or Bairs
4 D-tilts or U-tilts

Speed:
1 D-smash charged like 1/3 of the way
2 somewhat charged f-smashes
3 uncharged F-smashes
4 F-tilts or Bairs
5 D-tilts or U-tilts

Buster:
1 uncharged d-smash
2 F-tilts, Bairs, or F-smashes
3 D-tilts or U-tilts

Counter timber is a custom tree of choice. While it's weaker than normal tree, it hurts whoever attacks it, hence the name. However, on the attack that kills the counter tree, it will not deal damage back. And... we just happen to be lucky enough to have moves that can 1 hit it, meaning it will be gone immediately without us taking damage. If you can't 1 hit the tree, you really shouldn't be attacking it. These are the moves:

Buster:
Bair, F-tilt, uncharged D-smash, back slash (back hit, which for the tree is the side opposite from where Villager is when he PLANTS it). Decisive arts do not add any new moves to this list.

Hyper Buster:
All the usuals but also D-tilt and front facing Back Slash.

Vanilla: Slightly charged D-smash (I'm now realizing the tree has 15 hp), and Back slash (back side)

Speed: Fully charged D-smash (that's it.)

Also, Buster F-tilt and D-tilt can outprioritize pushy loid

Dash vision should be good, and AAS will be good as an attack and for avoiding them bowling balls. Will elaborate more tomorrow.

 

[Berserker.]

Well, I was about to say that this was suppose to be more of a discussion about default specials (we'll have a round 2 for customs soon), but since both characters remain to be fundamentally the same, I guess customs are perfectly fine to discuss

 

[erico9001]

Well, I was about to say that this was suppose to be more of a discussion about default specials (we'll have a round 2 for customs soon), but since both characters remain to be fundamentally the same, I guess customs are perfectly fine to discuss

Right! The discussion will still be focused enough that there is no need for two threads.

So going back to this:

I was going to do a write up about customs, but so far I'll just put down my notes for killing trees. These were tested outside of training mode, so freshness/staling is involved.

Killing normal tree:
Jump/Vanilla:
1 uncharged D-smash
2 uncharged or charged F-smashes
3 F-tilts or Bairs
4 D-tilts or U-tilts

Speed:
1 D-smash charged like 1/3 of the way
2 somewhat charged f-smashes
3 uncharged F-smashes
4 F-tilts or Bairs
5 D-tilts or U-tilts

Buster:
1 uncharged d-smash
2 F-tilts, Bairs, or F-smashes
3 D-tilts or U-tilts

Counter timber is a custom tree of choice. While it's weaker than normal tree, it hurts whoever attacks it, hence the name. However, on the attack that kills the counter tree, it will not deal damage back. And... we just happen to be lucky enough to have moves that can 1 hit it, meaning it will be gone immediately without us taking damage. If you can't 1 hit the tree, you really shouldn't be attacking it. These are the moves:

Buster:
Bair, F-tilt, uncharged D-smash, back slash (back hit, which for the tree is the side opposite from where Villager is when he PLANTS it). Decisive arts do not add any new moves to this list.

Hyper Buster:
All the usuals but also D-tilt and front facing Back Slash.

Vanilla: Slightly charged D-smash (I'm now realizing the tree has 15 hp), and Back slash (back side)

Speed: Fully charged D-smash (that's it.)

Also, Buster F-tilt and D-tilt can outprioritize pushy loid

Dash vision should be good, and AAS will be good as an attack and for avoiding them bowling balls. Will elaborate more tomorrow.

So what can be gathered from that with the counter tree, is it's actually no threat if you're in monado buster. It's easy to land a Bair or F-tilt on it. Or, maybe back slash would be worth it if you're on the tree's backside and you want to surprise the Villager with the horizontal movement. If I were the villager, I would probably opt to using just the tripping sapling against Shulk. Because of Speed Shulk's difficulty in handling the counter tree, I would recommend it against a Shulk who is adamant on using that art (or decisive speed).

Since we are talking about customs, realize that we also have our own customs options to use against Villager

1) Dash Vision
Dash vision against Villager's forward or backwards slingshot will hit Villager will hit Villager within 2/3 of the maximum range of his pellet, making it a good option for getting at him. The same goes for he pushy lloid, which has just a slight larger distance traveled than the pellets. It won't necessarily do the most damage, but it will break his zone and send him off stage. Always keep this option in mind, especially since Villager has a pretty bad grab (slow and does not lead into combos from my knowledge). Keep in mind that the forwarded version has LESS range, about 5/9 the distance of Villager's pellets (or like the distance of Shulk's leg span). Also, the forwarded version is less useful because it sends them away from the edge rather than sending them off of it (they usually end up near the edge). That just gives them the opportunity to re-setup their zones, rather than having to make it back onto stage where you are waiting for them.

2) Back Slash Charge
Villager likes his Bair. It has better damage than the Fair, and can be used in many of the same situations of Fair. With Back Slash charge, Shulk likes it too! Back Slash Charge does eat the pellet and Villager takes the hit. Of course, do remember back slash charge's low knockback, and do not use it at low percents.

However, I'm not sure if this gives it more utility than the other back slashes. I just like that back slash charge actually can have some use for once .

3) Advancing Air Slash
Considering how the range of the second strike can strike from about the same distance as dash vision, this is pretty good for breaking his zone. This is especially true since the two strikes of AAS out-prioritize the pellets. Another use is to combat Villager's bowling ball, since it is really troublesome for the regular air slash but not AAS. I strongly recommend using AAS for this MU, which for many people might require getting used to the new position from which you should use it. Imagine a line coming straight out from the stage's edge. You want some space (like half a Shulk) between that line and Shulk's feet for the maximum recovery. Go lower to snap to the edge or hit the opponent as you recover.

These moves give Shulk an easier time getting into the right position in front of Villager. They lower the need to be using Monado Speed, and so Monado Buster becomes more viable. Again, Buster easily kills trees (1 hits counter tree with F-tilt and Bair without taking any damage), and Buster out-prioritizes pushy lloid, which is usually a pain to deal with. I would recommend Monado Buster with customs! >Not saying it's that good in non-customs play.

His Edge Stalling:
The reason I voted for Villager is I had ideas for taking out the edge-stalling Villager people were panicking about. A few days later, I found a competitive thread called dealing with jank that discussed the strategy as a whole, and this gave me further ideas.

-When Villager is on the edge, his head peaks over it because of his short arms. What this means is at any distance from the edge, D-tilt, D-smash, AS, and even back slash will hit him. He is also more prone to a downward tilted F-smash. Players lose invincibility if they do not land on the ground or take damage between two grabs of the edge. So, if Villager is doing this, any of these moves are an option. Keep in mind that AAS does not connect together if used on him while he's on the edge (tested without rage though). The goal if hitting Villager while he's on the edge here is to be sure to do so before you get hit by a balloon. Also, know that the balloons only explode if you hit them with a hitbox or Villager manually does it by using another up B. If you aren't in the position to do it this time around (ie. a balloon is coming up from the ground towards your feet), you can shield the balloons and wait for the next opportunity. Keep in mind the balloons are low damage at 6%.

-Villager with the Exploding Balloon Trip custom has pretty bad vertical recovery. He is pretty susceptible to Shulk's Dair in this position, as Shulk's Dair thankfully has enough range to poke through the balloons at him. He still has great horizontal recovery, however. When edgeguarding him, rather than Fair or Bair, I recommend go for the Dair.

-I haven't tested it, but I can imagine going to monado jump to deal with the edge stall, and treating him to a Bair or RAR Fair to stage spike him. Again, he's more susceptible to stage spikes thanks to the bad vertical recovery. I'm not sure if AAS has enough base knockback to kill him with a stage spike.
---
So villager is chopping down his tree?:
Well, actually, it's very obvious to higher level players that we are going to try to counter it. They might just bait the counter so you are then vulnerable to the attack during visions ending lag.
---
Let's see.. umm has it been mentioned that we want to stay not too far away but not too close to Villager? His frame data wins up close, and his pellets out range from a distance.

So... can't think of anything else to say about it right now. Will post this now, and if I have to I will reply again or edit .

edits:
- Specified how the forwarded version of dash vision has less range, and is less useful here
- Specified that when I was comparing AAS to Dash Vision, I was comparing the distance it can attack from.

 

[Artryuu]

Ooooo This matchup that makes extremely impatient shulks suffer. . .
Base on my experience with Ponco and Darklink401.
I say that this matchup is definitely in Shulk's favour +1 and I'll proceed with helpful matchup tricks.

~The Monado's laser can obliterate gyroids~
Villagers tend to setup a gyroid then expect you to jump or stay shielding.
If you jump they will jump and throw a fair.
If you stay shielding they will run towards you and grab.
You can bring mindgames here by either, f-tilt the gyroid (don't be afraid to challenge it, the Monado's laser makes it disappear)
Or countering it.
- You can then do the stay in shield or jump when they don't expect it, jump with a fair.

~Against Campy villagers at ledge~
Many Shulks get desperate when Villagers start camping throwing gyroids and slingshots.
Don't, what you should do is crouch in a particular way close to the ledge but not very close, in a way that your down tilt will hit incoming gyroids or villagers that regrab or your angle f-smash can hit. Crouching works a ton, you can eat those fairs (don't be afraid to eat them while crouching ((don't shield)) > Crouching gives less hitstun and you can counter villager with fairs or dairs if possible. Don't get to greedy by jumping and challenging them in the ledge. (you'll probably get gimped)

~Villager's tree~
You got to learn to respect the tree. If you don't you'll probably be losing a stock here. You can f-smash villager out of the tree or counter the tree but it's best not to challenge it. ((Also there is this one trick to chop the tree in one move so be aware of that!!!))

Arts~
Buster and speed work quite well. Buster racks up that damage and destroys the tree.
Speed will help you get away from dangerous moments as well as bring an offensive play (but space well, if you don't you'll get fairs.)

Oh and when Villager's recover, they usually throw a gyroid on their way back... challenge them with a fair. You get a stock right away ^-^/
So crouch your way and trust in the Monado's blade <3

 

[Antonykun]

Hmmm "Villager is campy/campy Villager"
how good is Shulk up close if not I doubt this is a +1 Shulk as Villager probably messes him up close.
At long range Shulk loses but not for long
At mid range Villager just does not want

 

[Peppa]

There's one of our better players here in Louisville that has picked up trip sapling multi-hit box Lloid Villager and I've had a really hard time getting in because he can just chill and use the Lloid which if I remember correctly can't be powershielded and just short hap fair/bairs on top of his sapling and will fast fall to power shield a nair approach, and my grab game can be poor due to tripping.
Thoughts?

 

[erico9001]

Hmmm "Villager is campy/campy Villager"
how good is Shulk up close if not I doubt this is a +1 Shulk as Villager probably messes him up close.
At long range Shulk loses but not for long
At mid range Villager just does not want

Yeah, Villager wins up close. I don't think it's +1 either.

 

[Berserker.]

Anyone can mess Shulk up when they get close especially since his frame data is the worst in the game. The thing is, you need approach Shulk. From what I'm seeing, you guys are suggesting that Villager should be aggressive in this match up instead of defensive/campy. That could work if Villager's move set was designed for aggressive play. Problem is, it isn't. You could say that you'd camp Shulk and provoke him to go at close range, but Shulk is primarily made for mid-range. The best tactic to do with Shulk is to stay at mid-range which is also Villager's worst spot. The best you can do with Villager is that you try breaking through Shulk's mid-range zoning and that's where the difficulty arises. Villager isn't really a rush down character. He'll need to get around Shulk's ranged normals before he can beat him up close.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm going to try to break down this comment for the sake of organization

Anyone can mess Shulk up when they get close especially since his frame data is the worst in the game. The thing is, you need approach Shulk.

Ah ok I wasn't too sure on that

From what I'm seeing, you guys are suggesting that Villager should be aggressive in this match up instead of defensive/campy. That could work if Villager's move set was designed for aggressive play. Problem is, it isn't.

Indeed, Villager is more of a zoning/anti-zoning character. She has just enough tools to break zoning what with her disjointed aerials and Pocket (Not like it's going to help against Shulk) so she can use her amazing close ranged buttons. There are few characters she wants to be camping against (Ganon and DDD come to mind)

You could say that you'd camp Shulk and provoke him to go at close range

Sort of. What you really want to do is pelt him with enough pellets so he doesn't have a hitbox while you get in, avoiding Mid range hitboxes[/quote]

but Shulk is primarily made for mid-range. The best tactic to do with Shulk is to stay at mid-range which is also Villager's worst spot. The best you can do with Villager is that you try breaking through Shulk's mid-range zoning and that's where the difficulty arises. Villager isn't really a rush down character. He'll need to get around Shulk's ranged normals before he can beat him up close.

This is why i have a hard time ranking an MU for the two. While Shulk can wall out Villager, he can't do it forever. Villager will get in. A perfect shield on a normal or a well timed roll/spot dodge means close range for Villager. Which is where she excels at. The question at least for me is If Shulk can Wall out Village before Villager gets in and if Villager can Shrek shulk inside long enough before he finds a way to reset to mid range.

Umm Shulk can Air Slash OoS right? that's probably important

 

[erico9001]

Anyone can mess Shulk up when they get close especially since his frame data is the worst in the game. The thing is, you need approach Shulk. From what I'm seeing, you guys are suggesting that Villager should be aggressive in this match up instead of defensive/campy. That could work if Villager's move set was designed for aggressive play. Problem is, it isn't. You could say that you'd camp Shulk and provoke him to go at close range, but Shulk is primarily made for mid-range. The best tactic to do with Shulk is to stay at mid-range which is also Villager's worst spot. The best you can do with Villager is that you try breaking through Shulk's mid-range zoning and that's where the difficulty arises. Villager isn't really a rush down character. He'll need to get around Shulk's ranged normals before he can beat him up close.

Villager does not need to approach Shulk, as he can set up his tree and send out gyroids. That puts some pressure on Shulk to do the approach, while Villager has none. Also, Villager's mid-range Fair and Bair vastly outreach Shulk's.

When we do approach, we need to make sure to be near him (as his mid-range is much longer than ours) but not too close to be hit by jabs or that umbrella. Oh, and Villager's Nair can hurt a lot too. For Shulk to be that distance, he needs to be spacing well, which is not always easy.

Sort of. What you really want to do is pelt him with enough pellets so he doesn't have a hitbox while you get in, avoiding Mid range hitboxes

Yep. This is the issue with approaching Villager with an aerial while in Monado Speed.

This is why i have a hard time ranking an MU for the two. While Shulk can wall out Villager, he can't do it forever. Villager will get in. A perfect shield on a normal or a well timed roll/spot dodge means close range for Villager. Which is where she excels at. The question at least for me is If Shulk can Wall out Village before Villager gets in and if Villager can Shrek shulk inside long enough before he finds a way to reset to mid range.

You could say that you'd camp Shulk and provoke him to go at close range, but Shulk is primarily made for mid-range. The best tactic to do with Shulk is to stay at mid-range which is also Villager's worst spot. The best you can do with Villager is that you try breaking through Shulk's mid-range zoning and that's where the difficulty arises

Umm guys... How is a defensive Shulk going to wall out Villager? Villager fires pellets from a far distance away, and can send out as many as he wants (and kinda fast too). Shulk is not dealing any damage when walling Villager. He is just gaining damage.

Umm Shulk can Air Slash OoS right? that's probably important

Yes! Hitbox comes out on frame 10. Although, we shouldn't get many opportunities to use it. Maybe if Villager is being overly aggressive and approaching with lots of Nairs (14 frames of landing lag) or other aerials.

 

[Berserker.]

This is why i have a hard time ranking an MU for the two. While Shulk can wall out Villager, he can't do it forever. Villager will get in. A perfect shield on a normal or a well timed roll/spot dodge means close range for Villager. Which is where she excels at. The question at least for me is If Shulk can Wall out Village before Villager gets in and if Villager can Shrek shulk inside long enough before he finds a way to reset to mid range.t

You can always opt not to give a score. I'm actually thinking about doing away with MU scores once the next patch commences (and I'm going to reset all the scores in the MU OP)

Villager does not need to approach Shulk, as he can set up his tree and send out gyroids. That puts some pressure on Shulk to do the approach, while Villager has none. Also, Villager's mid-range Fair and Bair vastly outreach Shulk's

That's not what I meant. I'm seeing here that Villager should go at close-range once Shulk tries to stay at mid-range, and yes, her f-air/b-air outranges Shulk because it's a projectile.

When we do approach, we need to make sure to be near him (as his mid-range is much longer than ours) but not too close to be hit by jabs or that umbrella. Oh, and Villager's Nair can hurt a lot too. For Shulk to be that distance, he needs to be spacing well, which is not always easy.

That's what I was getting to with Shulk. I meant close enough that his aerials will reach Villager's but not too close. That's where he'll thrive (because Villager is bad at mid-range)

Yep. This is the issue with approaching Villager with an aerial while in Monado Speed.

Dash to shield. Really, it's a lot safer and much easier to just dash to Villager

Umm guys... How is a defensive Shulk going to wall out Villager? Villager fires pellets from a far distance away, and can send out as many as he wants (and kinda fast too). Shulk is not dealing any damage when walling Villager. He is just gaining damage.

At mid-range. Not at long-range, buddy.

 

[erico9001]

You can always opt not to give a score. I'm actually thinking about doing away with MU scores once the next patch commences (and I'm going to reset all the scores in the MU OP)

That's not what I meant. I'm seeing here that Villager should go at close-range once Shulk tries to stay at mid-range, and yes, her f-air/b-air outranges Shulk because it's a projectile.

That's what I was getting to with Shulk. I meant close enough that his aerials will reach Villager's but not too close. That's where he'll thrive (because Villager is bad at mid-range)

Dash to shield. Really, it's a lot safer and much easier to just dash to Villager

At mid-range. Not at long-range, buddy.

ok yep. True then. Dash to shield is definitely how to approach with speed. Being in Speed helps Shulk maintain pressure if Villager tries to flee.

 

[Berserker.]

Decided to just make the MU score +1 and +0 to appeal to everyone. Again.

It won't matter though, MU discussions will be affected at April 15 so er.. Have fun