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Videos Demonstrating a Stellar Neutral Game? Will Melee Examples Help?

SkyRW

Smash Cadet
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Mar 22, 2014
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59
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Seattle, Washington
Couldn't find any search results in PM boards... Basically, I'm just wondering what some examples of a great neutral game from samus players are. I'm also wondering whether I can learn much from watching melee players like plup, hugs, and darrell.


Apologies if this post is redundant and no worries if mods decide to close it. If that happens, just point me in the right direction :)
 

pooch182

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You can't go searching for videos demonstrating a really good neutral game until you understand what the neutral game truly is. It takes some people a long time to even be able to start to pick up on the intricacies of a player's movements, or to even recognize that everything they do is in relation to an overall plan.

Take a few weeks to really just watch matches as a whole. It doesn't matter if the sets even involve Samus. Just take some time to look at isolated exchanges. Ask yourself questions about the exchange: who won the exchange? Why did they win said exchange? What were the placements of both characters in relation to each other? In relation to the stage? What sort of playstyles are both players exhibiting, and is that a factor into why one opponent beat the other in an exchange (IE a bait or powershielding a projectile that is easy to read)?

Watch some locals matches of the players that place consistently well in bracket. Ask them questions after their sets: why did you decide to threaten shield in such and such position? What made you decide to occupy space under the platform? etc etc. Some won't be able to explain themselves, and those people have naturally learned the neutral through no purposeful study (which is totally fine). Being able to ask these questions and know why you're asking them is the true answer. You start to look for stuff to ask about, and soon you'll start to be able to answer those questions with high certainty that you're correct, because you understand the situation better as time goes on.

If you truly want to look at the neutral game from a Samus standpoint, Melee is probably your best bet. When it comes to general movement, look for plup stuff. If you want to see how to outplay high level spacies, watch HugS and Duck. If you want to watch more traditionally difficult match ups dealt with properly, Duck is a favorite of mine for Sheik and Marth. If you want to watch for unorthodox pressuring, especially when platform tech chasing, watch Darrell. If you want some well rounded Samus play that encompasses all of these but at a more toned down level, watch some old sets of DJ Nintendo. If you want truly old school and badass stuff that won't work but looks amazing, watch IHSB and Wes. Wes is a bit more practical, though.
 

SkyRW

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
59
Location
Seattle, Washington
Thanks pooch! I really appreciate the advice. I basically want to break down the neutral game by watching games and do exactly as you said. You definitely gave me more direct advice, and I have a place to start now, which is awesome!

In regard to the spacies matchups in general, would you say watching melee videos would be the place to start? Honestly, I don't find a lot of good 3.5 samus v spacies games around.
 

pooch182

Smash Journeyman
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If you ever have the time, go and watch some HugS analysis on his stream. He's got really solid insight, and he's known for picking up people's habits very quickly. He performed quite well against Dr. PeePee at EVO, so that's a set I'd suggest studying heavily for the spacies MU.

I tend to do rather well against spacies, but anytime I'm on stream, it's because I know I should lose the set and I want stuff to look over. My 3.02 set with Rat has a lot of good information in it, so that's a big one to watch, IMO. Chevy against Silent Wolf usually makes for some good footage, although I'll admit that at times, Chevy's neutral game is lacking. The same can be said for myself, though, and sometimes it's good to have examples of poor decisions in the neutral, because you can look into why that was a poor decision.
 

SkyRW

Smash Cadet
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Mar 22, 2014
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59
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Seattle, Washington
I didn't even know HugS streamed!
I've been to tournaments locally where I've watched Chevy play. It's really impressive at times, and at others he get's totally punished for seemingly small mistakes. I've wondered why at times, but to be honest, I never really thought too much about it.

I just focused on what was good and tried to learn from it.


Last Saturday he was watching me play and I got so nervous that I got wrecked by a noob fox player haha I should have swallowed my pride and asked him for advice but I was just way too embarrassed by my bad play >.>
 

pooch182

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You don't get pride until you place well, and even then, it's not much more than a hindrance to progress. Play with an objective mindset and only allow emotion to interfere in controlled, directed ways that enhance your play. This game takes a lot of mental focus, and being able to train yourself to control your emotions and reactions is incredibly important. It's what separates really good players from ****ing godlike players.

But yeah, at earlier levels, I'd almost say it's more important to learn from players' bad mistakes. By identifying poor play in others, you'll find it easier to identify your own issues and fix your gameplay accordingly. Seeing something and knowing it's optimal only works if you've got the technical prowess and same ability to follow up on things after winning an exchange. Practice getting your fundamentals straightened out in the neutral before looking at things that turn out from a confirmed win in the neutral exchange.

Also, if you don't already have a dedicated notebook and pen for taking thorough, thorough notes, you should get a notebook as soon as you can. Taking notes forces you to verbalize/materialize your sub-conscious thoughts into conscious ideas that can be analyzed and processed.
 

SkyRW

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Mar 22, 2014
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Yea, It's definitely a weakness of mine. I get embarrassed really easily, but I try not to project my feelings onto others...

I'll definitely take your advice and use one of my clean notebooks to take notes for smash. I'm sure it'll help me objectify my goals as well.. I did for Starcraft, and it really helped me a lot back then.

I've definitely got the drive to get better, and I'm sure I can do it - It's just gonna take a lot of work.
 

Naggy

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pooch182 pooch182 , in regards to note-taking, what does that look like in practice? I've read a lot on the subject of analyzing gameplay in smash but i don't really have a clear idea of where to start or what kinds of things to write down.
 
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pooch182

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It depends on how you like to think, Naggy. For example, if you take a look at like most of my posts, they tend to be rather lengthy and can often times be very redundant in themselves. This is because I like to engage my audience/listener with constant stimulation of thought, making sure to drive home core concepts and ideas throughout my explanations. This is because I naturally need said stimulation to properly analyze and come to conclusions with my own way of thinking.

If you were to take a look at one of my notebooks, you'd see very disorganized, jumbled bull**** that makes no sense to any body but me. It's like that on a lot of pages, and a lot of pages in between are left blank. I don't bring my notes to tourneys, because I just don't have the room in the venue to comfortably take physical notes there, and in my own opinion, I feel like it can detract from my learning. Instead, what I decide to do, is I'll come home, throw on an album side, and just spew out as much information as I can into my notebook before the album side ends. Once the music stops, so does my pen. Over time, this has forced me to categorize my ideas into broad concepts, and then narrow my thoughts into the most important things I've learned that day, and then, if I have time, minor details that don't mean as much for me to be learning at my current level of skill.

After I comprise all of the thoughts for a couple of weeks, I take my notes, study them over, and try to remember what they all mean, and if I can't make out what my notes are exemplary of, I disregard that little blurb and consider it useless information at the moment. Everything else I take and reformat into paragraphs that are clear and concise and explain things in layman's terms so as to be as thorough as possible with them. Once I do that, I'll study the material for a while, and then I'll often times destroy the notes, because I'm weird and I've always had this mindset that maintaining notes in physical form will lead me to depend on them and I won't be able to consistently recall information when needed. You don't have to do that part, I did it with school work and stuff too, and it works alright for me. You don't have to do anything I've written above, because it might not suit your style of thinking.

Maybe you like to categorize things into neatly formed tables of info. Maybe you like doodling something next to a nice 2 sentence recap of an idea. Your notebook shouldn't look anything like my notebook, or anything like the next guy's notebook. It should look like your notebook, and should only matter if it makes sense to you. As far as how to start, it's pretty simple. Ask yourself one question. It can be any question at all (so long as you can relate it to smash). Which way is [player] fond of teching? Does [player] have a preference of side of the stage? How many exchanges did it take in the neutral before a stock was taken? Expound upon these questions, in whatever way you'd like. Try to explain things, try to think about how to beat things, and how to avoid being beaten by other things. Just think, and then write. It's a flow of consciousness, just write what you think.
 

Kaysick

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Maybe you like to categorize things into neatly formed tables of info. Maybe you like doodling something next to a nice 2 sentence recap of an idea. Your notebook shouldn't look anything like my notebook, or anything like the next guy's notebook. It should look like your notebook, and should only matter if it makes sense to you. As far as how to start, it's pretty simple. Ask yourself one question. It can be any question at all (so long as you can relate it to smash). Which way is [player] fond of teching? Does [player] have a preference of side of the stage? How many exchanges did it take in the neutral before a stock was taken? Expound upon these questions, in whatever way you'd like. Try to explain things, try to think about how to beat things, and how to avoid being beaten by other things. Just think, and then write. It's a flow of consciousness, just write what you think.
To expand upon this, its the same way like writing down notes for school. Yea, they tell you generally how to make notes, but its all down to how you structure everything to have it all make sense. I personally don't take notes about my fellow Smashers, but there's a lot of stuff you can write down if you analyse a player. Especially if they're generally around your skill level or better.

What are their general habits? What's something that you noticed in game that you thought you could punish most of the time but your fingers didn't want you to? Things of this nature. Write down what character they play. What counterpicks they choose against you and possibly other players if you want more knowledge against them. Oh and of course, bring your notebook to tournies helps. You don't have to do what Pooch does exactly since that's just his way of doing things.
 

Litt

Samus
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Feb 2, 2013
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To expand upon this, its the same way like writing down notes for school. Yea, they tell you generally how to make notes, but its all down to how you structure everything to have it all make sense. I personally don't take notes about my fellow Smashers, but there's a lot of stuff you can write down if you analyse a player. Especially if they're generally around your skill level or better.

What are their general habits? What's something that you noticed in game that you thought you could punish most of the time but your fingers didn't want you to? Things of this nature. Write down what character they play. What counterpicks they choose against you and possibly other players if you want more knowledge against them. Oh and of course, bring your notebook to tournies helps. You don't have to do what Pooch does exactly since that's just his way of doing things.
Just like writing essays, note taking is a very untaught process that is very sink or swim. In order to take proper notes, one must know what to first look for, obvious habits are easy to pick up, but when a player says they have no habits, it does not mean they won't do anything twice, but it means that after punished for something once, they wont be caught with their hand in the cookie jar again, because they adapted and reacted. You must look at the foundational principles of movement in order to ascertain patterns in which an opponent forms against your style of play, aka the choices they make, and whether that choice limits or expands further options. Do they move forwards, backwards, up, or down when I do X, do they repeat the previous action the next time I do X, if so, deem habit and punish, next time double check if they had noticed you picking up on their habit/reaction to X, if not, continue to punish. This can be applied to when they are in shield, to understand what options they choose or even are able to perform as a player, and you can build a schema of their technical abilities within the first game to use against them the rest of the set. This goes for options off the ledge, as well, if they like to come up with a rising fair, give them the space required and then as soon as they try to take it, punish for what you knew was coming. Going back to chevy, his combo game is great, and offensive neutral is pretty damn solid as well, but that guy doesnt understand how to pressure a shield or defensive neutral well at all ;p and if he does understand it... he just doesnt do it xP
 
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pooch182

Smash Journeyman
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Sep 22, 2013
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Also, touching on the whole idea of "If X, what is response" idea: this can be daunting for a lot of players, especially when you're studying an opponent who is far more skilled than you. I used to be really caught up by Kels' fox when I first played him, because I'd never dealt with a fox with such perfect and fast movement. It was intimidating and it didn't allow me to think straight.

Then I learned about movement.

After I learned about movement, I was still scared, but I had an epiphany on how to analyze him. Instead of focusing on very minute details, I'd be as broad as possible. "If I missile cancel into a wavedash f-tilt, what does Kelly decide to do?" Instead of answering that with something like "short hop nair waveland into double shine thunderous", I merely looked at it as "combatant with missile, disregards attempt at zoning and punishes slow movements". You don't have to be specific with what moves are being thrown out, at first. Just recognize the basic concept of what your opponent is trying to accomplish. Are they occupying space? That can be defined as dash dancing, walling with aerials, or even just standing still. There's more depth to these ideas, but start from the shore before wading out into the ocean.

Feel free to PM me any footage or anything like that, and I'd be more than happy to discuss and analyze with you, if you feel like that would help with your learning process.
 

SkyRW

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
59
Location
Seattle, Washington
For me, I'll probably start by noting the circumstances where I can potentially get punished in certain matchups. For example, I'll note a period where I lose the neutral game exchanges and take note of what led up to that situation. In theory this makes sense to me, especially considering, for me specifically, I make a lot of intuitive mistakes since I've focused on tech skill for such a long time. That's just me. I think depending on your play style, note taking can be different.

In starcraft, I'd take notes on what to expect if I scout certain situations, and it just helped me keep the thoughts in the forefront of my brain... It wasn't even necessarily something I referred back to often... But it did help because I reinforced what I learned by writing it down.... And I think that's probably the most important thing about note taking.
 
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