Upsmash Punishment And General Match Up Thread

[RPK]

Ive always wanted to make this, and pretty much slowly add to it as time goes on. This is a thread on how to land a raw upsmash without comboing into it. Utilizing Fox's incredible dash speed, there are a lot of things that can be punished with this so might as well start now as this will be an ongoing project. All kill percents will use Regular FD as the measurement tool as to stay consistent. If possible, please add your findings and I'll add to the list if they seem viable. Please make sure to be as exact as possible as to what happened.

On the subject of moves, make sure to specify if the move was spaced at the tip, or up close. And with aerials if they were short hopped, full jumped, fast falled, and or done in the air or on the ground. If they were approaching, if they were retreating, if the move whiffed, if it hit your shield. Also if it the move they do can be autocanceled. Despite some moves being autocanceled they can still be punished. There are a lot of scenarios and I want them all recorded because each one can be a guaranteed kill

Ways to land a raw upsmash
Trade
Outprioritze
Whiff
Shielddrop -> Dash -> Upsmash
Shielddrop -> Turn around -> Dash -> Upsmash
Powershield -> Dash -> Upsmash
Powershield -> Turn around -> Dash -> Upsmash
Powershield -> Upsmash
OOS->JC Upsmash

The following tabs contain information on moves that can be punished with Upsmash as well as the opponent's kill percentage with, and without VI. In addition to this, Ive also included whether or not they can be hit with an autocanceled Bair.

Spoiler: Mario

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 108
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Luigi

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 103
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Peach

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 100
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Bowser

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 122
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Yoshi

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 110
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Rosalina & Luma

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 94
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Bowser Jr.

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 113
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Wario

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 114
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Mr. Game & Watch

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 91
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Canceled Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Donkey Kong

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 125
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Diddy Kong

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 108
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Link

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 113
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Zelda

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 99
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Shiek

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 98
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Ganondorf

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 116
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Toon Link

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 103
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Samus

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 112
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Zero Suit Samus

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 99
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Pit

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 107
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Palutena

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 100
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Marth

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 106
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Ike

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 116
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Robin

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 107
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Kirby

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 93
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: YES
~

Spoiler: Dedede

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 130
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Meta Knight

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 98
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Little Mac

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 104
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Fox

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 97
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Falco

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI 100
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
Auto Cancel Bair: Yes
~

Spoiler: Pikachu

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Charizard

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Lucario

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Jigglypuff

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Greninja

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Duck Hunt

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: R.O.B.

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Ness

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Captain Falcon

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Villager

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Olimar

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Wii Fit Trainer

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Dr. Mario

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Dark Pit

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Lucina

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Shulk

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Pac-man

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Mega man

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Sonic

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Mii Brawler

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Mii Gunner

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

Spoiler: Mii Swordfighter

Upsmash Kill Percent without VI
Upsmash Kill Percent with VI
~

 

[Conda]

IMO too many spoilers tags within the character sections, for each move.

 

[Virgman]

Wow, this is going to be a lot of good info.

 

[RPK]

Yeah, and I dont think it'll ever be 100% complete since there are just soo many characters. This is definitely going to be a group project for the Fox Boards. First thing of course that I want to get out of the way is the upsmash kill percents on every character with and without VI

 

[RPK]

Updated from Mario to Link for their exact upsmash kill percents without VI. Ive also added whether or not they can be hit be an autocancel bair. Hopefully Ill be able to get atleast this done by tonight. Finished up all the way to Little Mac and found out that even Kirby can get hit with an auto canceled bair. Its pretty amazing, but its pretty hard to get the timing down consistently.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

So... How do I fight Sheik? What moves do I have that can outprioritize her main approaches. Should I reset neutral or should I just go in and duke it out?

 

[Gentatsu-]

So... How do I fight Sheik? What moves do I have that can outprioritize her main approaches. Should I reset neutral or should I just go in and duke it out?

Based on my series of games last night against a sheik main, I found it is better to stay close. Sheik just tends to have more options at midrange although your blaster does outrange her needles.

 

[Juker]

I was actually wondering about his up smash kill percents as I saw this thread. Anyway, the reason I was thinking about it, is I was reading another thread that mentioned Fox's up smash being nerfed, and it made me wonder if it actually has been nerfed. It's obvious from this data that it kills at later percents, but if you consider the average percent kill range in this game, I don't necessarily think it's much weaker, if any. I'm not sure what average kill percents will look like in the future, but right now with them probably being around 130 or more, that makes his up smash look rather strong in comparison. If you consider in Melee, the average kill percent was probably around 100 (really hard to say an average in a game with so many gimps) and fox's upsmash would usually kill around 90, then comparatively, his up smash is actually rather strong in this game. And if you're going to argue that the kill percents are lower in Melee, which they probably are, then that just lends credence to his up smash being better than is currently thought in Smash 4.

These are obviously just generalizations, and speculation, but still something to think about considering the strength of his up smash in Smash 4.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I was actually wondering about his up smash kill percents as I saw this thread. Anyway, the reason I was thinking about it, is I was reading another thread that mentioned Fox's up smash being nerfed, and it made me wonder if it actually has been nerfed. It's obvious from this data that it kills at later percents, but if you consider the average percent kill range in this game, I don't necessarily think it's much weaker, if any.

During the demo, his up-smash was considerably weaker. In the invitational, it took PPMD up to 150 to KO HugS's Mega Man with that move. Maybe the thread was during that time?

It seems to be waaay better than when the demo was made, anyhow, since it KO's most characters at 120 now. Maybe not as strong as it was in Melee, but still good

 

[Conda]

His fsmash sea very bad, however. Easily punishable as any shield knockback doesnt matter, as fox comes along with you read to be punished. The hitbox is very tiny compared to the graphical effect - theres basically no hitbox where fox travels, its inly at the startup and midpoint. This the second half of the animation is pointless and punishable. Its a weak hitter too sadly. Prefer falcos due to the huge hitbox and it doesnt put you in a disadvantageous position.

Thats a running theme. Falcos moves, minus his nair, are all easier to land and generally do more damage. Thats the tradeoff for ground speed. Im not sure its worth it, as falco also gets better jump height and spikes, so its more even than youd think.

Im not sure fox's usmash is the beast it used to be that justifies his weaknesses elsewhere. Its more balanced (weaker) due to the tinier and more finicky hitbox.

 

[Kanzaki]

During the demo, his up-smash was considerably weaker. In the invitational, it took PPMD up to 150 to KO HugS's Mega Man with that move. Maybe the thread was during that time?

It seems to be waaay better than when the demo was made, anyhow, since it KO's most characters at 120 now. Maybe not as strong as it was in Melee, but still good

I was fortunate enough to attend e3 and played the demos for 3 consecutive days.. Although I invested majority of my time on Mario I played some fox since I did use him some in brawl.. The usmash was terrible in the e3 build. I didn't even t want to use fox anymore cause of how bad he was. I'm glad they buffed him from the demo.

 

[Maniak]

Sticky this matchup thread

 

[Hidden Arwing]

Sticky This Thread Please~

 

[G-Sword]

u should definetly record those different ways to get a Usmash because i have a very tough time getting it on certain people. getting them up in % is not a problem but trying to get that final blow is

 

[knuckles213]

I definitely want this to get finished