Up Throw Chaingrab Information [WIP]

[FlashingFire]

So I was thinking it would be awesome if we had a resource that could tell me (and other people) how long Snake can chaingrab each character and at what percents these chaingrabs work. Seeing that my knowledge of this is incomplete, I invite other experienced Snake players to share theirs and help complete this project.

For each character, I'm looking for

• whether character X can be chaingrabbed
• what percent the chaingrab starts at
• the percent it ends at
• the number of chaingrabs possible
• follow-ups after the chaingrab stops working
• any other noteworthy information

I'll add what I already know later.

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[Professor Pro]

Interested, look forward to this

 

[FlashingFire]

Me too. I might just have to find a bunch of the numbers myself though - even if I mess some of them up, hopefully being wrong will prompt others to find out what actually works.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Please add "DI angle to get out the quickest" as category.
Very good idea indeed.

 

[FlashingFire]

Looks like I'm not getting a whole lot of outside input. Eventually I'll put in some time in the lab to figure this stuff out, but in the meantime consider this pretty much on hold.

 

[bicth]

Captain Falcon:
yes
~15-60%
4-6, depending on how stale the move is
up air if he goes too high, back air if he DI's sideways, c4 stick if you miss the grab
best DI angle: up and away at most percentages, down at very low percentages

 

[bicth]

Fox:
yes
-20-80%
6-10
up air is very easy follow up. fair will push opponent away, giving you time to plant mines, maybe use the tranq gun
DI angle: left or right

Samus:
no

Pikachu:
yes
-0-40%
4-5
up air is pretty much always the best follow up
no good DI angle. very easy to chain grab. DI'ing behind Snake is probably the best bet

 

[Foxy K]

Ice Climbers
No
~1
Not sure if Nana can interrupt the throw, but you can definitely get shield-grabbed or smashed by one of them if you grab the other. Not sure about Sopo though, just thought I'd contribute on the pair since it's easy.

 

[FlashingFire]

So my last PM tournament of the semester will be on the 12th. Maybe after that I'll find time to start spending time in the lab figuring this stuff out.

 

[SSS]

I could figure it out I'd just need a second person willing to sit through it with me on a second controller DIing.

Did PM fix the training mode move staling? In Brawl moves didn't stale in training mode and it made it impossible to test chaingrabs and stuff.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Man you can hold both controllers or input the DI with the foot... No johns! ^^

 

[bicth]

I could figure it out I'd just need a second person willing to sit through it with me on a second controller DIing.

Did PM fix the training mode move staling? In Brawl moves didn't stale in training mode and it made it impossible to test chaingrabs and stuff.

moves don't stale in training mode. however, knockback isn't affected at all by stale moves in PM so it's just the damage you have to worry about.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Damage affects knockback so damage staling affects knockback staling, just by a smaller amount

 

[Sylarius]

Looking forward to this, good stuff guys.

 

[SSS]

moves don't stale in training mode. however, knockback isn't affected at all by stale moves in PM so it's just the damage you have to worry about.

Like Chesstiger said. If damage is different that means knockback will be different between number of grabs.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Bowser:
Yes
0-35%
4 times.
Stick C4, Uair, Bair,
Best DI is behind but even then you can just pivot for the grab

Mewtwo, Ness, Zelda and Peach are all no from off the top of my head.

 

[SSS]

We should also be figuring out at what point in the grab can you get a guaranteed sticky.

 

[FlashingFire]

Dang, I forgot this thread existed.

To be honest guys, I'm not really up for this anymore. Like, the amount of time required to compile accurate info for this is something I can't commit to. Feel free to continue discussing stuff, but I probably won't be updating the OP, sorry.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

I have a pretty good portion of this done just sitting on my computer I have 15 to 20 characters left to do that I can get done tomorrow most likely if I can get my little brother to help me again.
Here is what I got so far:
Bowser:

Spoiler

Yes
0-35%
4 times
C4 stick guaranteed, Uair, Bair for DI behind,
Best DI is behind but even then you can just pivot for the grab

Captain Falcon:

Spoiler

yes
10-60%
6 times
Uair if no DI, Bair if they DI behind, C4 stick guaranteed
best DI angle: up and away at most percentages, down at very low percentages

Charizard:

Spoiler

Yes
0-35%
4 times
Fair into tech chase, Bair for backwards DI, C4 stick guaranteed until Uthrow at 45%

Diddy Kong:

Spoiler

Yes
0-~50%
6 times
Uair if no DI, Bair if they DI behind, C4 stick guaranteed

Donkey Kong:

Spoiler

Yes
0-~45%
5 times
Uair if no DI, Bair if they DI behind, C4 stick guaranteed

Falco:

Spoiler

yes
20-80%
Up to 10 times
Uair is a very easy follow up. Fair for DI away, Bair for DI behind, Guaranteed C4

Fox:

Spoiler

yes
-20-80%
Up to 10 times
Uair, Fair for DI away, Bair for DI behind, Guaranteed C4

Game & Watch:

Spoiler

No

Ganondorf:

Spoiler

Yes
0-35%
4 times
Fair into tech chase, Bair for backwards DI, C4 stick guaranteed until Uthrow at 45%

Ice Climbers:

Spoiler

No

Ivysaur:

Spoiler

No

Jigglypuff:

Spoiler

No

King Dedede:

Spoiler

Yes
0-35%
4 times
Bair for backwards DI, C4 stick guaranteed until Uthrow at 45%

Kirby:

Spoiler

No

Link:Lucario:Lucas:Luigi:

Spoiler

No

Mario:Marth:Mewtwo:

Spoiler

No

Meta Knight:Ness:

Spoiler

No

Olimar:Peach:

Spoiler

No

Pikachu:

Spoiler

yes
0-40%
4 times
Uair, C4 Stick,
Behind, no way to DI out before 40%

Pit:R.O.B:

Spoiler

No

Roy:Shiek:Snake:Sonic:Squirtle:Toon Link:Wario:Wolf:Yoshi:Zelda:

Spoiler

No

Zero Suit Samus:

 

[LonVoen]

Zero Suit Samus
0-40%
DI options:
-behind-down or forward-down to give less time to react with turnaround or forward step for 2-3 uthrow
-up, left or right on fourth~fifth throw.

Guaranteed sticky on last uthrow but if she DIs up she can punish naked sticky with nair. UpB -> Sticky combos for up DI. You can track a left or right DI on the fourth throw and get an UpB -> Sticky but it puts you in a very disadvantageous spot if you space wrong or go the wrong direction.

Alternately you can followup with Uair, Bair, or Nair. Dair can be escaped or made impossible to track with good smash DI.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Captain Douglas Jay Falcon
Can he be chaingrabbed? Yes, 0-70%

Follow ups
Up throw C4 sticky from 0-40
Up throw up tilt 0-40
Up throw SH Fair 63-75 upward/forward DI, 70-100 backwards DI. The latter must require a full hop and frame perfect (or nearly).
Up throw SH Dair-0-70 good DI, 0-80 bad DI. The latter must be a full hop and nearly frame perfect
Up throw Cypher-0-80 good DI (behind), 0-121 bad DI (upwards).

 

[SSS]

At low percents on you can do uthrow>cypher>stick but he can DI out enough so that you can't do the stick, at which point you have to do like fair or something. As far as I know can't be guaranteed chaingrabbed.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

At low percents on you can do uthrow>cypher>stick but he can DI out enough so that you can't do the stick, at which point you have to do like fair or something. As far as I know can't be guaranteed chaingrabbed.

I worked on this data with John Numbers and you can CG him until 35% and you have a guaranteed stick on him until 45%


I got the rest of the data, just need to find where I put it on my computer and update that last post...

 

[victinivcreate1]

Jigglypuff can't be CG'd

However you CAN GET Up throw into Cypher from 0-7% even on GOOD DI, and if she DIs Cypher incorrectly, sticky set up. You could also up throw up tilt from 0-4% even on Jigglypuff's best DI

 

[SSS]

Jigglypuff can't be CG'd

However you CAN GET Up throw into Cypher from 0-7% even on GOOD DI, and if she DIs Cypher incorrectly, sticky set up. You could also up throw up tilt from 0-4% even on Jigglypuff's best DI

Snake vs Puff sounds really annoying. I'm sure Snake wins it but it sounds stupid.

But would it be a stupider matchup if I went Kirby. . .

 

[0mart]

How often is this getting update? @ FlashingFire

 

[FlashingFire]

Dang, I forgot this thread existed.

To be honest guys, I'm not really up for this anymore. Like, the amount of time required to compile accurate info for this is something I can't commit to. Feel free to continue discussing stuff, but I probably won't be updating the OP, sorry.

@ 0mart

 

[0mart]

@ FlashingFire oh, that´s too bad man :s but is there someone else who can take on this thread? like that´s a info we all should have.

 

[cisyphus]

I can integrate this information into my KO% and more guide. The semester's coming to a close soon and I'm really interested in completing my guide so you can definitely count me in for picking up the project.

 

[cisyphus]

Alright so I finished this, lol. This is all subject to some scrutiny, but with the introduction of debug mode in 3.5, I feel the accuracy of this spreadsheet is of a high enough quality to be applicable to competitive play.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v6s43mVDqef5U7wptRshc44YxOka4oxmmMRbKhfGJ9c/edit?usp=sharing
I've also included:
1. Repurposed "chain grab" into "regrab" because I can't really call two grabs a chain, but it's notable nonetheless.
2. When u-tilt works out of u-throw as a quick launcher/potential kill combo based on u-tilt -> c4 (shown in bold). This also provides a cute, low-percent SH Fair tech chase setup on some characters, given the huge range of Fair. More to come (maybe)
3. When u-air works out of u-throw. This can actually KO some characters (shown in red) at the higher ends of percents. Besides that, it's a nice option to start a juggle string into C4 KO, provided you've managed to stick already.
4. When the C4 stick is guaranteed. This doesn't rule out opponents hitting you afterward though, so be wary of the higher ends of these percentage ranges.
5. Which characters' sleep animations are below Snake's 3.5 grab range (meaning you should first hit dair -> u-tilt instead)
6. Which characters can duck under Snake's grab (so you'll be mindful of it in those specific matchups)
7. Because I have no better place for it right now, which characters are comboed by f-tilt->u-tilt (which can punish certain characters that sleep during Snake's grab: Squirtle, Mario, Luigi, and Kirby) and in general is a great floaty killer in combination with C4.

This is all contained in the "U-Throw" section of the linked spreadsheet. All of this data is assuming neutral DI, so this is just the earliest that these follow-ups work. These can extend much further percentage-wise if you can react to their DI properly. A range is given mostly because I'm not actually going to test how something works at each and every %. Instead, I tested every 5% and these intervals reflect that figure.

Also packaged is the beginnings of an all-inclusive KO% guide which will pay additional attention to platform heights' effects on these KO%s, meaning that certain grab combos could actually become KO combos given proper platform placement (and with Snake's solid Aerial Interrupt options, this is a really strong, unexplored part of his game). Snake could start looking like Fox pretty soon with u-throw chain grab -> platform techchase regrab -> top platform u-throw -> u-air! Enjoy!

And I'll say again: if anyone is willing to help contribute to the construction of this, I'd really welcome the help. It takes 10-20 minutes per character to get all the values straight, and with a 41 character cast and at least 9 legal stages, I'm looking at something like 100 hours of testing.

 

[IonescoBasco]

This has been very useful already! I'm watching this thread carefully!