Turtle Dilemma

[Ballistics]

So I found this wee baby turtle swimming in the lake that I go to here in Tallahassee. The lake is about a few acres big and contains alot of aquatic grass on the bottom of it, however, we have put sand down in one area to simulate a beach and its really nice.

Especially in this beach area where I found the turtle, there are minnows, larger fish, even larger bass, and a 6 foot young alligator. There are a few turtles you occasionally see peek their heads out of the water as well.

Upon finding the baby turtle, who must have just recently been born, I realized that he probably wouldn't last a week in that environment, given all the creatures that could eat him. I decided to take him home and nurse him until he is big enough that he can't get eaten by the fish. My friend who actually found him, and I named him Leonardo.

So far the turtle is doing great, he only eats live food like worms and minnows and I have him in a small aquatic tank. However, I was talking to another person who also frequents the lake who said that it was quite an evil thing I was doing by taking the turtle away from his home, even though I might be saving his life. He said that a week of freedom is better than a lifetime of imprisonment.

I disagree because I want the turtle to live a happy long life and eventually be able to have kids of his own. I smoke with the turtle and play with him often and I'm teaching him not to fear humans. His life is great!

The person also said that if I let him go among the shallow grass he would be able to evade predators.

So while I doubt I will actually let him go, how does the PG community feel about this issue? Is it better to live a week in his natural habitat and bite the dust to a fish? Or is it better to live in my buddha sanctuary with food, entertainment, and security until hes big enough to start living his natural life?

 

[Dre89]

If you plan on releasing him back into the wild, the only problem is that it won't know the skills wild babies learned.

However, I don't know if turtles need to learn any skills?

By the way, how capable are turtles of affection, and can they distinguish between humans?

I have the rare distinction of being bitten by a turtle.

 

[asianaussie]

This is certainly an interesting dilemma, but there's an issue: There are too many moral obligations to satisfy at once: safety, freedom, nature, ecology, etc

Ergo, there is no perfect answer: releasing the turtle exposes it to risks, but gives it freedom, and, to a degree, sustains the ecosystem, while keeping it will lengthen its life at the cost of denying it a normal turtle's life. If you feel that you want to keep it as a pet, that's your choice.

Look any deeper than that and you'll start probing topics like 'do turtles have conscious emotions' and 'are freedom and happiness explicitly linked'...

Simply put, do what you feel is best. I would keep the turtle, but I like small animals, so...

 

[Zatchiel]

He said that a week of freedom is better than a lifetime of imprisonment.

If it means he has to die within the period of a week to his release, by joyous voice, keep him within your sanctum. That said, it's also not good to keep him under humane environment for too long, he wouldn't know what to do when time comes to defend himself in life situations such as physically threatening encounters that would cause him to fight for survival. I also think he'd come to think of you as a parent, which is somewhat bad considering he's going to be released to the wild at a certain age aside from his discretion.

I disagree because I want the turtle to live a happy long life and eventually be able to have kids of his own. I smoke with the turtle and play with him often and I'm teaching him not to fear humans. His life is great!

If this means retaining him to your domicile for such long this period can be, i strongly disagree.
Nature takes its course, things come, and things die. Not necessarily that he doesn't deserve to see a week of day, but you shouldn't just keep him for such long as for him to become housebroken. It's going to harshly bite at his life upon release, not knowing how to find food of his own, having not knowledge of his kind, and being completely dependent upon humane interactions.
When you say his life is great, do you mean his life? Or yours ?

The person also said that if I let him go among the shallow grass he would be able to evade predators.

Aside from that completely false statement (seeing the environment he's being released to), i think he's actually in more danger inside of your home. Not talking about any domestic animals you could have on site, but nonetheless, he's not going to last long upon leaving your house to the wild outdoors. As a personal experiences, i think you would feel better about releasing him to a (serene) part of the wild you find suit for him to have a better chance, but indoors with a wild animal you aren't intent on keeping for life is a definite misstep.

Is it better to live a week in his natural habitat and bite the dust to a fish? Or is it better to live in my buddha sanctuary with food, entertainment, and security until hes big enough to start living his natural life?

I can't give a straightforward opinion (not that it could be misinterpreted, i just want to get through by a better implication), so i'll give you these (note that this isn't factual, since it varies from home to home):

If you keep him indoors:

- He'll look at you as his parental guardian

- He won't want to leave, and he'll more than likely try to find his way back to his haven, which could be a crude alternative route to a untimely death

- You may develop a tighter bond with him than you expected, and it could become traumatizing to let him go

Benefits:

- You'll build a desirable bond with your pet


- You won't have to fear for releasing him

- He won't feel deserted should your come and return appear as a frequent occurring


If you release him:

- As you stated, he won't live too long a life, if he's unlucky (not to base this on luck, but there's no way to see it better)

- He will have to struggle for food, mainly in the flock of his own, especially if the substance becomes scarce

- He well also have encounters with things pertaining to human-environment interaction

Benefits:

- He won't be housebroken

- He'll learn how to defend himself with his grouping

- He'll have a grouping to resort to in case of threats

- Natural revival isn't too late to accomplish

 

[Ballistics]

If you plan on releasing him back into the wild, the only problem is that it won't know the skills wild babies learned.

However, I don't know if turtles need to learn any skills?

By the way, how capable are turtles of affection, and can they distinguish between humans?

I have the rare distinction of being bitten by a turtle.

I did a little research and it looks like their foraging and hunting skills can be taught via not feeding them by hand and letting them hunt inside their tanks.

Seems that reptiles might not have the mental capacity for affection, but tame turtles will beg for food and respond to belly rubs.

LoL what kind of turtle bit you?

This is certainly an interesting dilemma, but there's an issue: There are too many moral obligations to satisfy at once: safety, freedom, nature, ecology, etc

Ergo, there is no perfect answer: releasing the turtle exposes it to risks, but gives it freedom, and, to a degree, sustains the ecosystem, while keeping it will lengthen its life at the cost of denying it a normal turtle's life. If you feel that you want to keep it as a pet, that's your choice.

Look any deeper than that and you'll start probing topics like 'do turtles have conscious emotions' and 'are freedom and happiness explicitly linked'...

Simply put, do what you feel is best. I would keep the turtle, but I like small animals, so...

I agree, I want to raise the turtle so it gets big enough that it has a chance of surviving in this pond. Then I will probably tag him somehow, or scratch something on his shell, so I know him when I see him.

If it means he has to die within the period of a week to his release, by joyous voice, keep him within your sanctum. That said, it's also not good to keep him under humane environment for too long, he wouldn't know what to do when time comes to defend himself in life situations such as physically threatening encounters that would cause him to fight for survival. I also think he'd come to think of you as a parent, which is somewhat bad considering he's going to be released to the wild at a certain age aside from his discretion.


I read about this, and have come to the realization that I should not try to feed him by hand, or feed him things from the store, so that he can learn to hunt and be self sufficient.

If this means retaining him to your domicile for such long this period can be, i strongly disagree.
Nature takes its course, things come, and things die. Not necessarily that he doesn't deserve to see a week of day, but you shouldn't just keep him for such long as for him to become housebroken. It's going to harshly bite at his life upon release, not knowing how to find food of his own, having not knowledge of his kind, and being completely dependent upon humane interactions.
When you say his life is great, do you mean his life? Or yours ?



I think both of our lives are pretty great, hes getting plenty of food and safety and I've got a little friend. Not to mention he gets to smoke weed with me and meditate.

Aside from that completely false statement (seeing the environment he's being released to), i think he's actually in more danger inside of your home. Not talking about any domestic animals you could have on site, but nonetheless, he's not going to last long upon leaving your house to the wild outdoors. As a personal experiences, i think you would feel better about releasing him to a (serene) part of the wild you find suit for him to have a better chance, but indoors with a wild animal you aren't intent on keeping for life is a definite misstep.

What was your personal experience if you dont mind me asking?

Check out this similar situation though from a turtle forum:

If you wanted to, you could keep it as a pet. All you would need to do is get the correct set up in your tank, which is a necessity to keeping a turtle alive and healthy. If this is the option you want to take, then you should consider buying a painter turtle book to make sure everything that is needed for it's care is done. If this is the option you choose, send me another message for some tips on tank set up and feeding.

Another thing you could do is to keep it for a year or two until it gets bigger, so it has a better chance of surviving to adulthood and breeding with other wild turtles. If this is the option you choose, you will still need to buy all of the stuff that you would to raise them. This can be a really fun experience, especially when you release it into the wild and remember how little it was when you first found it and how you helped it. The difference is, you will need to feed it differently, and act differently, than you would if you kept it as a pet.

If you choose as a pet, you would want to handle it a lot so it doesn't bite, and feed it some food that you buy at a store (and occassionslly a few fish). But if you wanted to release it, you would feed pretty much only fish, and handle it as little as possible. You wouldn't want the turtle to learn to eat from your hand and eat fake food if you were going to release it, you need to feed live fish so it learns to hunt. You can also leave some raw meat on it's basking area if you aren't sure it's catching enough food yet, but make sure it at least starts learning to catch food, and you can even hide food around it's environment (don't leave the food in the same spot every day or it will learn to go there for food). You can also feed it dead or living bugs you find around the house, like if you swat a fly with a fly swater or if you squish a mosquito on the wall. Crickets are also good for calcium, which you can buy at the pet store. If you wanted, you could dig up earth worms from the yard as well.

Another thing you could do is let it go in one of your koi ponds and just leave it in there, but you would still need to buy small feeder fish and your koi will probably get eaten(if you have any in there). Also, there needs to be a very shallow part, and also some rocks for it to climb on and bask in. I woud suggest right in the middle, especially if you would want to try to keep it in there, but there are no guarantees it will stay in there.

The last thing you could do is to let the turtle back go and let nature take it's course. If this is what you want to do, then let it go in one of the boggy areas, just make sure there are some minnows or other small fish for it to eat. If you see other turtles basking around, then its definately a good spot. Make sure there is shallow water (babies can't swim well and need to learn), and don't put it in a creek that has fast moving water or anything like that (it won't be able to hunt or swim). It would learn on it's own to hunt, parent turtles don't raise their young.

Which ever choice you make is okay, there aren't any wrong choices. Whatever you feel is right to do is what you should do, whether you want to keep it or release it or something in between.

Good luck! I hope my info has helped you make a choice that's right for you and the little turtle. Send me back a message to let me know how things are going!
Best wishes, Chelsey

I can't give a straightforward opinion (not that it could be misinterpreted, i just want to get through by a better implication), so i'll give you these (note that this isn't factual, since it varies from home to home):

If you keep him indoors:

- He'll look at you as his parental guardian

- He won't want to leave, and he'll more than likely try to find his way back to his haven, which could be a crude alternative route to a untimely death

- You may develop a tighter bond with him than you expected, and it could become traumatizing to let him go

Benefits:

- You'll build a desirable bond with your pet


- You won't have to fear for releasing him

- He won't feel deserted should your come and return appear as a frequent occurring


If you release him:

- As you stated, he won't live too long a life, if he's unlucky (not to base this on luck, but there's no way to see it better)

- He will have to struggle for food, mainly in the flock of his own, especially if the substance becomes scarce

- He well also have encounters with things pertaining to human-environment interaction

Benefits:

- He won't be housebroken

- He'll learn how to defend himself with his grouping

- He'll have a grouping to resort to in case of threats

- Natural revival isn't too late to accomplish

The last thing I want to do is be cruel to animals, however, and I joke about this all the time that I would be an awful biologist, because I would always be interfering. If I saw buzzards stealing a meal from some cheetahs, I would shoot the buzzards until they left, because the cheetahs caught the food and they are dying out, I wouldn't just let nature take its course and kill the cheetahs, the cheetahs are beautiful.

In the same way if I can make sure this turtle lives a full life and gets to pass on his genes I am going to do it.


Thanks for your responses guys, they have helped me alot.

 

[UberMario]

A few things:

A. what kind of turtle is it? Most "pet" turtle species (Red-Eared Sliders, Mississippi Maps, etc.) breed frequently and can do fine in the wild as youngsters.

B. If you plan to keep it until it's a reasonable size, what is your definition of a reasonable size?

C. If you plan on releasing it at all into the wild, make sure to let it have at least a third of it's meals be live prey when it's big enough. (Feeder Guppies, Crickets, etc. just to make sure the hunting instinct is still there should you release it)

D. If you plan on keeping it anywhere past 3-inches, it will probably be too used to humans to be safely released due to conditioning. Turtles are a lot smarter than people think and can have a bond with their owner. I've known from personal experience that they can recognize their owner(s). And also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0W5t_1YdMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx2LnoPI_Dw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwQ4hDsP_jg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6EPbZx332g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6fhI4gZBM4&feature=related


E. As said before, could you tell us what kind of turtle it is? If it's a common species found in stores, there is little reason to bring them back to the wild beause most are feral.

F. Turtle care is usually underestimated, when it's full grown, expect to require a 40-55 gallon tank to keep it indoors. And filters are a MUST due to their bottom-rooting tendencies, as are areas for it to emerge from the water. (Though if it's young, a 10/20-gallon will suffice for a while.)

G. Contrary to popular belief, they CAN feel their shells, so while knocking on them isn't going to do any harm, it's more annoying to them than say, stroking. I'm not accusing you or anything, it's just I've seen it done before.

H. Ultraviolet lights [that you can find at pet stores] are beneficial to healthy growth. You can usually find ones designed for aquariums

I. A good deal of turtles will destroy water plants, so if you must decorate your tank, use fake props, also no fish unless you have no problem with them being a pricy meal.

 

[Ballistics]

A few things:

A. what kind of turtle is it? Most "pet" turtle species (Red-Eared Sliders, Mississippi Maps, etc.) breed frequently and can do fine in the wild as youngsters.

Its a red eared slider, while I do recognize that he might be able to survive, the place where I found him was full of predators like bass and birds and an alligator. And I didn't see any of his relatives so I might have got him just in time.

B. If you plan to keep it until it's a reasonable size, what is your definition of a reasonable size?

Big enough to where he at least won't get eaten by the fish.

C. If you plan on releasing it at all into the wild, make sure to let it have at least a third of it's meals be live prey when it's big enough. (Feeder Guppies, Crickets, etc. just to make sure the hunting instinct is still there should you release it)

Good idea.

D. If you plan on keeping it anywhere past 3-inches, it will probably be too used to humans to be safely released due to conditioning. Turtles are a lot smarter than people think and can have a bond with their owner. I've known from personal experience that they can recognize their owner(s). And also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0W5t_1YdMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx2LnoPI_Dw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwQ4hDsP_jg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6EPbZx332g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6fhI4gZBM4&feature=related

LoL those videos are awesome, I plan not to let him know who gives him his food so he doesn't get too attached to me. However, he likes his green too much for me to stop smoking with him.

E. As said before, could you tell us what kind of turtle it is? If it's a common species found in stores, there is little reason to bring them back to the wild beause most are feral.

Red eared slider, not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that most turtles are from the wild anyway so he doesn't really have to go back?

F. Turtle care is usually underestimated, when it's full grown, expect to require a 40-55 gallon tank to keep it indoors. And filters are a MUST due to their bottom-rooting tendencies, as are areas for it to emerge from the water. (Though if it's young, a 10/20-gallon will suffice for a while.)

I don't plan to keep him that long, at least those aren't my plans right now.

G. Contrary to popular belief, they CAN feel their shells, so while knocking on them isn't going to do any harm, it's more annoying to them than say, stroking. I'm not accusing you or anything, it's just I've seen it done before.

I just try to give him belly rubs but he mostly tries to just escape when I hold him

H. Ultraviolet lights [that you can find at pet stores] are beneficial to healthy growth. You can usually find ones designed for aquariums

Yea I got one of those.

I. A good deal of turtles will destroy water plants, so if you must decorate your tank, use fake props, also no fish unless you have no problem with them being a pricy meal.

I collect minnows at the same lake that I found him at, so no worries about the coin.

 

[UberMario]

"Red eared slider, not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that most turtles are from the wild anyway so he doesn't really have to go back?"

No, what I'm saying is most of the species in pet shops have made large feral populations in the US [especially the RES], even though they are native to the Southern US [like Florida], pet releases have made them spread like wildfire across the globe, in fact, one of their alternative names is the "Norway Reptilian Rat". While they really shouldn't be removed from the wild, due to their overabundance, it's practically the equivalent of taking in a stray puppy: it won't be missed because there are too many already. (So to speak, there can never be too many turtles )

Just a fair bit of warning when you say that you only want to keep it for a little while: it takes more than year for a HEALTHY RES to grow an inch. A one-year old turtle is only about an inch long, five-year-old turtle is about 4", while a full grown turtle is at least ten. If you want to keep it until it's 6" long, you'll be waiting about seven years. Have you tried measuring it? It can be easy to identify an age estimate by shell length.