So i have been working on shffling and have been successful in mastering it however i still feel like it hasn't impacted my overall game. For example when i am SHFFLing and shiek does his dash attack I still get hit without time to recover and then comboed over and over again. I guess it comes down to i hate shiek but i guess my question is how can i use my SHFFLing skill to improve my game?
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Trouble with the Marth SHFFL
- Thread starter marth469
- Start date
sigh... nowadays people think its all about "shffling and mindgames and techskill"
ok basically your problem is tactics.
for example, if you know that shiek is going to needle you from afara, and you even manage to "goad shiek into doing it" and then you can perform perfect SHDFairs whilst approaching - that hasnt really put you into a better position at all if youre still on the other side of the stage whilst shiek is far away enough to throw needles are you without worry of you chasing her.
to deal with dash attack there are several things you can do. just being able to shffl isnt one of them
most common is shieldgrab - from here you can fthrow and mix it up with your nice long range frontal attacks <try to avoid fsmash unless youre going for the kill, but forward+b, fair, nair, dtilt, ftilt, utilt all work>
other than that you can throw off the edge <use downthrow for throwing behind>
backthrow can be common in that players will always attempt to jump out of a backthrow <so you can follow this up with an anti air more - utilt, uair, jump forward bair, etc.etc. - even use forward +b to gain some additional space and stun - and in the air you can use neutral b as a VERY long ranged weak finisher>
uthrow is good for your basic juggles <uair usually>
other options are crouching at low percentages - meaning that there is little to no knockback. this usually means you can attack straight away - fsmash might not be best - but ive seen you can use low knockbacks like dtilt, UTILT especially, shffl nair, fair, uair if youre good - and if youre good you can combo this into more frontal attacks or grabs or juggles
at very high percentages a rare tactic is to shield and up+b straight out of shield <sweetspot is right next to you>
<ken loves this move>
if hit right you can either do it reverse OR forward and it will sweetspot and have a decent knockback
other options are to shield and shorthop dair out of it, sometimes you can get away with the ther airs.
---
basically, theres plenty to do against dash attack which is much easier than "trying to shffl a timed fair so it overprioritizes her" - they both end up with the same result, one is easier to do. heck if yuore not good at aerial combos, a grab may be much more sufficient.
if you REALLY dont like standing still you can dashdance back, wavedash back, WALK back, jump over and wait for cooldown, use dtilt as shes coming.
DONT be tempted to use counter - the ONLY situation to use counter is when you are playing NTSC and get downthrow - dash attack at 30~% and jumping isnt fast enough and shes too close when she dashes for you to fair.
whenever you can counte,r you cna do something else.
dash attack is one of her laggier moves, and one which is much easier to space from, so you can pick out a nice long drawn combo which youve memorised or can make up on the spot once she does one.
-other problems with shiek are grab, which are usually done DAJC or JC, which the response is usually jump and attack with dair, or WD/dash back and wait for the lag.
to deal with dsmash - always DI up vs shiek and dont be tempted to techroll all the time into stupid places - getup attacks are good SOMETIMES aswell as a normal getup to shield or dodge if she goes for a grab
---
other ways of dealing with it are spot dodging aswell..
---
ok yuo get it - there are infinite possibilities. your problem is youre picking the wrong tactic to deal with it. shffled fair isnt going to help you THAT much - go for a grab, or a dash back + free attack.
also - if youre not at a position where if you get a chance to attack, and you dont do a HUGE, soul destroying unbeatable combo on her - then your marth needs work.
against the best marths its like, you make a mistake, and youre taking 4 fairs and a finishing move in the face because he combos you, and if youre % is high you get instant tippered.
ok basically your problem is tactics.
for example, if you know that shiek is going to needle you from afara, and you even manage to "goad shiek into doing it" and then you can perform perfect SHDFairs whilst approaching - that hasnt really put you into a better position at all if youre still on the other side of the stage whilst shiek is far away enough to throw needles are you without worry of you chasing her.
to deal with dash attack there are several things you can do. just being able to shffl isnt one of them
most common is shieldgrab - from here you can fthrow and mix it up with your nice long range frontal attacks <try to avoid fsmash unless youre going for the kill, but forward+b, fair, nair, dtilt, ftilt, utilt all work>
other than that you can throw off the edge <use downthrow for throwing behind>
backthrow can be common in that players will always attempt to jump out of a backthrow <so you can follow this up with an anti air more - utilt, uair, jump forward bair, etc.etc. - even use forward +b to gain some additional space and stun - and in the air you can use neutral b as a VERY long ranged weak finisher>
uthrow is good for your basic juggles <uair usually>
other options are crouching at low percentages - meaning that there is little to no knockback. this usually means you can attack straight away - fsmash might not be best - but ive seen you can use low knockbacks like dtilt, UTILT especially, shffl nair, fair, uair if youre good - and if youre good you can combo this into more frontal attacks or grabs or juggles
at very high percentages a rare tactic is to shield and up+b straight out of shield <sweetspot is right next to you>
<ken loves this move>
if hit right you can either do it reverse OR forward and it will sweetspot and have a decent knockback
other options are to shield and shorthop dair out of it, sometimes you can get away with the ther airs.
---
basically, theres plenty to do against dash attack which is much easier than "trying to shffl a timed fair so it overprioritizes her" - they both end up with the same result, one is easier to do. heck if yuore not good at aerial combos, a grab may be much more sufficient.
if you REALLY dont like standing still you can dashdance back, wavedash back, WALK back, jump over and wait for cooldown, use dtilt as shes coming.
DONT be tempted to use counter - the ONLY situation to use counter is when you are playing NTSC and get downthrow - dash attack at 30~% and jumping isnt fast enough and shes too close when she dashes for you to fair.
whenever you can counte,r you cna do something else.
dash attack is one of her laggier moves, and one which is much easier to space from, so you can pick out a nice long drawn combo which youve memorised or can make up on the spot once she does one.
-other problems with shiek are grab, which are usually done DAJC or JC, which the response is usually jump and attack with dair, or WD/dash back and wait for the lag.
to deal with dsmash - always DI up vs shiek and dont be tempted to techroll all the time into stupid places - getup attacks are good SOMETIMES aswell as a normal getup to shield or dodge if she goes for a grab
---
other ways of dealing with it are spot dodging aswell..
---
ok yuo get it - there are infinite possibilities. your problem is youre picking the wrong tactic to deal with it. shffled fair isnt going to help you THAT much - go for a grab, or a dash back + free attack.
also - if youre not at a position where if you get a chance to attack, and you dont do a HUGE, soul destroying unbeatable combo on her - then your marth needs work.
against the best marths its like, you make a mistake, and youre taking 4 fairs and a finishing move in the face because he combos you, and if youre % is high you get instant tippered.
thebluedeath1000
Smash Champion
THanks Tarlog..most of what I was going to say but I realized I only needed ths
If it hasn't impacted your game, then no, you're wrong, you haven't mastered the shuffle.
If it hasn't impacted your game, then no, you're wrong, you haven't mastered the shuffle.
Imperial Wraith
Smash Journeyman
Wow, lovely post Tarlog.
I guess basically, what everyone is saying is although you may master a particular tech, you still have to learn to implement it. For instance, when I first learnt to wavedash, I became worse for a time. However, putting into action/practicing has helped greatly.
Don't go straight for the SHFFLd attack. There are many things you could do, such as DD into a grab, and take it from there.
I guess basically, what everyone is saying is although you may master a particular tech, you still have to learn to implement it. For instance, when I first learnt to wavedash, I became worse for a time. However, putting into action/practicing has helped greatly.
Don't go straight for the SHFFLd attack. There are many things you could do, such as DD into a grab, and take it from there.
Ace Madcap
Smash Rookie
I've got a similar problem to marth469's, but it doesn't have to do with Shiek specifically.
See I can SHFFL easily when I'm not hitting anyone. My problem comes in when I actually hit someone with the aerial and that little additional delay hits in that slows down SHFFLing when compared to a SHFFL done with no target. I can't seem to get the l-cancelling right no matter how hard I try.
If I do a SHFFL with no target into an F-smash, the delay between the two is really small. However, if I hit someone with a SHFFLed attack and go into a F-smash, it seems that there's a much bigger delay between the SHFFL and the smash.
Is this how it's meant to be even when perfectly L-cancelled or am I just not doing it right? And if I'm not doing it right, then how should I go about practicing to get my timing down.
Sorry if I hi-jacked the thread. I just figured I'd post in here since it's somewhat similar to the original problem...sort of.
See I can SHFFL easily when I'm not hitting anyone. My problem comes in when I actually hit someone with the aerial and that little additional delay hits in that slows down SHFFLing when compared to a SHFFL done with no target. I can't seem to get the l-cancelling right no matter how hard I try.
If I do a SHFFL with no target into an F-smash, the delay between the two is really small. However, if I hit someone with a SHFFLed attack and go into a F-smash, it seems that there's a much bigger delay between the SHFFL and the smash.
Is this how it's meant to be even when perfectly L-cancelled or am I just not doing it right? And if I'm not doing it right, then how should I go about practicing to get my timing down.
Sorry if I hi-jacked the thread. I just figured I'd post in here since it's somewhat similar to the original problem...sort of.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
L-canceling from nothing,hits, and shielded (lightshield and shield) have different times to L-cancel. Only playing for a long time and lots of experience will help you get better at that. You could buy and AR and do the infinite shield to practice L-canceling against a shield. But it's much harder to keep it consistent against another player.
So yes the lag time between hitting nothing, something, and a shield are different. You just have to L-cancel at the appropriate times.
So yes the lag time between hitting nothing, something, and a shield are different. You just have to L-cancel at the appropriate times.
spoonyd
Smash Apprentice
Just memorizing timing when you empty SHFFL some aerial is cool and all and definitely a place to start so your fingers get in the habit of a particular button combination. Pay attention to the point where Marth is about to hit the ground instead of just hitting L cause you know the timing. You need to teach yourself some new timing. Granted even in a real game you won't always connect with a SHFFLed move. This only comes with more practice and using your tech in a real game.
Ace Madcap
Smash Rookie
Just out of curiosity, do most people use the c-stick for their SHFFLed attacks or the a+direction method?
I can use both just fine for the first hit, but when it comes to comboing, it's slightly more difficult to use the c-stick. That's just for me anyways. I kinda want to get in the habit of using the c-stick though because it'll probably be more convenient later on since I can just focus on hitting down on the control stick to FF rather than hitting a+direction and then down.
I can use both just fine for the first hit, but when it comes to comboing, it's slightly more difficult to use the c-stick. That's just for me anyways. I kinda want to get in the habit of using the c-stick though because it'll probably be more convenient later on since I can just focus on hitting down on the control stick to FF rather than hitting a+direction and then down.
spoonyd
Smash Apprentice
Any good Marth player will tell you they use the C-stick for their aerials. It allows for optimum DI and spacing. It's pretty much required for SHDF comboing as well. A lot of people use the A for the first hit however.
thebluedeath1000
Smash Champion
....Wavedashing is hitting l or r while holding the movement stick slightly downward at an angle and jump...its not that hard.
Ace Madcap
Smash Rookie
You forgot to mention the jumping.
Basically to wavedash, you jump and a split second after doing so, you airdodge and hit the control stick in a south-west or south-east direction. The more you point the control stick to the left or right, the longer the wavedash will be, but if you point it too far in either direction, then you'll just airdodge.
So to recap, it's jump, then L (or R) and either down and left on the control stick, or down and right.
Maybe these videos will help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q6X-Oo5wBo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVHGl4x-XnY&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Tzb642Xp0&mode=related&search=
Read the comments on some of these. They give a pretty good explanation of how it's done.
thebluedeath1000
Smash Champion
what are you talking about ace madcap?....>.>
Ace Madcap
Smash Rookie
I'm talking about wavedashing. You forgot to mention that you have to jump before hitting L or R and a downward direction.
I feel like I'm missing something here...
I feel like I'm missing something here...
thebluedeath1000
Smash Champion
I did mention it, what are you talking about?
??
??
Ace Madcap
Smash Rookie
lol. Edit FTW I guess.
* Tha Judg3 *
Smash Journeyman
excatly.... you just move around more
Brightside6382
Smash Lord
Lets not forget the marginally important fact that shffling consists of being in the air and doing an ariel and WD'ing is just sliding across the ground ^_^. But they are similar in the fact that your characters MOVES I guess...
Red Shirt KRT
Smash Ace
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switch to iceclimbers and whoop on shieks *** 