Tournament Play Settings

[Traveller]

Hey everyone.

I want to talk about SSBM's tourny "Settings/Rules". Why is it that these matches must be played on only a few levels with no items etc. I can understand that its considered that playing that way supposedly brings out a more fair assessment of players skill levels. But I think that having items on etc can show more skill because you have to contend with a lot more happening. For me item throwing and clever item useage is a huge part of the game and I think its a shame that at the competitive level its not played that way from what I can tell.

So I think it would be great if a competitive scene emerged that had these things turned on and the stage restrictions taken away. These matches could be highly entertaining at the pro level.

Possible Settings

- 3 Stock or Time Match
- All items on
- Medium frequency
- Random level

Basically I think if your going to be good at smash you should be able to handle anything that the game can throw at you. Of course there is something to be said for these intense no items etc matches they are impressive when two highly skilled players are going at it. But I think another way to to play at the competitive level is something that should be looked into.

What do you guys think?

 

[Crooked Crow]

lol

nope

sorry

kinda

 

[Traveller]

Hey if your not going to comment with a serious response as to why two ways of competitive play cannont be achieved then dont bother posting. I would like this thread to turn into a discussion for pro's/con's etc and why this style is left out of competitive play.

 

[Blackshadow]

Leave this to the Smash Back Room. You're not going to get a rational response here.

EDIT: My mistake, I thought he said SSBB >_>

 

[Zankoku]

Matches at any competitive level will not be entertaining on stages like Temple, Venom, or Brinstar Depths. There are certain items that are pretty much broken. Starman ftw? Not to mention the already evident imbalances with certain characters from enabling items.

 

[Gerbil]

Let me lay it out to you.

-Some stages are quite frankly, unfair.
-All items are almost quite frankly, unfair.
-Our general rule set for stock and time limit is due to time restraints as well as allowing more chances of a win. I don't have an elaborate explanation for it.

Stages:

Stages are banned due to multiple reasons. I'll list some examples out.

Size: Stage size is important. Some characters are just faster than others, and that's quite obvious. We'll use Fox for the majority of this post. Fox can SHDL correct? Or even more simpler, SHL. The laser has no finite range. So in essence, because Fox is one of the fastest characters, can do reverse lasers in the air and land with no lag time, and can basically stay away from you the entire match, it makes large stages a problem. Fox can just camp infinitely, then move in for the kill when you're at a high enough %. All from lasers, and due to the fact that you can't keep up. Please do not tell me to ditto, because dittos will become a camp fest, and time will be wasted. Fox is not the only example of camping.

Stage Hazards: This is Smash. So yes, stage hazards are a part of smash. This is why we leave some of the more severe stage hazards as counter picks. However, some stages are just outright impossible to deal with. I can't come up with any examples of a stage being banned due to only the hazards. Most stages banned that have hazards are because of characters that can abuse them. Check this: Brinstar Depths. The stage with Kraid that spins around. Characters like Jigglypuff and Kirby can camp the bottom platform for ever after they get a KO. Then, any other char that attempts to get down there will no doubt die 90% of the time. All because a character is occupying that space already, you lose your jumps trying to get there, and they take advantage. Call it whining and complaining if you want, but it's super cheap and the ultimate goal of competitve play is to remove the randomness and cheapness so that we may compete with skill and only skill.

Stage walls and walkoffs: Some characters (again Fox) have infinites that work up against the walls, or characters that can score easy KOs at 0%. Donkey Kong can lure an enemy to the edge, grab, and backthrow for an instant KO. You never stand a chance. Fox can wallshine someone against the wall indefinately until he decides to kill you. Again, these are factors that must be taken into consideration.

Before I move on to items, I'd just like to state that the reasons above (and below) could be entirely wrong and that some pro may come in and stomp the crap out of my post. But these are just observations that I've noticed for the past 2 years that I've been involved in competitive play. Note that there could be many more or different reasons than the ones I listed, but it's all food for thought.

Items:

This can be put into a giant massive paragraph or two. Items, and their random factors, are what gets them banned. Some people will argue that it is due only to the exploding crates and capsules, others will say it's due to all item and how they affect matches.

I am one of those people that think it has to do with all items and their random factors. Items unbalance the gameplay. If I spawn in, and the item next to me is a fan, and the item next to you is a bo-bomb, then what do you think will happen?

Oh, some characters can use items better than others I think. I was told at one time that Pichu is a better item user than some.

Here's a situation to think about: It's 1 stock each, 300%. Kind of like Sudden Death but not really. I mean, bombs arn't gonna start spawning out of nowhere right? Quickly, go in for the forward tilt and get the kill! Quick do it!

*ftilt*
*bomb/exploding crate/exploding capsule spawns in*
*ftilt connects with spawned item*
*death*

How would you feel if that situation happened, and that cost you the few hundred dollars between first and second? It would suck. And you would complain that it was luck that item spawned in there. Right?

Done.

/post

On a serious note, I hope I helped you realize some of the reasons why we, the competitive scene, deems it better to play as how we do. Some people will agree with me, others will disagree, and then others will yell at me for no reason lol. But that's how it works.

 

[shadydentist]

Some items are simply too overpowered, such as heart containers, so those would be banned. Exploding crates and pills further complicate the matter, as an unlucky drop during an attack could kill you, so thats the rationale behind the banning of all items. In the past, there were many tournaments with items on, but those have slowly been phased out due to the above issues.

As a general rule, the stages that have been banned are the ones in which camping is an overpowering strategy. In hyrule, for instance, due to the triangular paths in the stage, a faster character can run away forever. Stages with a large divide in the middle (peach's castle, fourside, venom) also heavily favor a defensive player, and were banned.

Generally, the nature of competitive play is to allow as much as possible, while retaining a relatively fair and balanced field.

 

[KmezzLIGHTNING]

if items were allowed.. I'd only play with fox, running and getting every item, and reflecting every item thrown at me... there's some characters that just gain such advantage with items, thats why pros don't play with them. As for other stages, they have techniques that only some characters can use, like winning in a match on hyrule temple with captain falcon, get ahead by one life and run around for the rest of the match, or infinite combos with fox against walls on some levels...e.t.c.. there's no BS in final destination no items, just pure skill. No luck in what item falls above you

 

[SothE700k]

Hey everyone.

I want to talk about SSBM's tourny "Settings/Rules". Why is it that these matches must be played on only a few levels with no items etc. I can understand that its considered that playing that way supposedly brings out a more fair assessment of players skill levels. But I think that having items on etc can show more skill because you have to contend with a lot more happening. For me item throwing and clever item useage is a huge part of the game and I think its a shame that at the competitive level its not played that way from what I can tell.

So I think it would be great if a competitive scene emerged that had these things turned on and the stage restrictions taken away. These matches could be highly entertaining at the pro level.

Possible Settings

- 3 Stock or Time Match
- All items on
- Medium frequency
- Random level

Basically I think if your going to be good at smash you should be able to handle anything that the game can throw at you. Of course there is something to be said for these intense no items etc matches they are impressive when two highly skilled players are going at it. But I think another way to to play at the competitive level is something that should be looked into.

What do you guys think?

 

[Sandwich]

I Can't Think Of Anything Witty To Say D:

 

[Traveller]

Yeah having it played the way it currently is, is fine. Its a great way to play matches, my friends and I played it like that more often than not for awhile. But I think some tourny's could allow two sections maybe, one the way it is now and one that is basically an anything goes type match where anything can happen. I just think that having it played like that could lead to some interesting matches at the top level.

 

[Skler]

Yeah having it played the way it currently is, is fine. Its a great way to play matches, my friends and I played it like that more often than not for awhile. But I think some tourny's could allow two sections maybe, one the way it is now and one that is basically an anything goes type match where anything can happen. I just think that having it played like that could lead to some interesting matches at the top level.

The matches played at the top level with items on all stages would be interesting, but it would also be based on luck. Playing those matches would suck, and no pro would agree to let luck have a factor in them winning a thousand dollars.

 

[S2]

Yeah having it played the way it currently is, is fine. Its a great way to play matches, my friends and I played it like that more often than not for awhile. But I think some tourny's could allow two sections maybe, one the way it is now and one that is basically an anything goes type match where anything can happen. I just think that having it played like that could lead to some interesting matches at the top level.

Here is the problem.

Tournaments take up a lot of time to run and finish, especially if a lot of players show up. 1v1 is always done and 2v2 is done nearly every time as well (but considered less important than singles).

Between those two, usually there isn't much time left for a third tournament. And if there is, usually crew battles and low-tier tournaments are in higher priority than having an item tournament.

Its been said, certain stages and all items are turned off not because people don't like them, but because they are imbalanced. If you thought Fox was the top character already, watch how much bigger the tier gap gets when you put on items and banned stages.

 

[E P I C]

Ugh... Fail...

 

[_OraNoS_]

To add something in on the counter-item argument, I believe there was a tournament a long while ago in which it was down to the two players' final stock and one person got knocked off and by the time he started recovering, the player on the stage picked up an item that had just spawned and got the KO. If I remember this correctly it was somewhere beyond the loser's bracket semifinals (meaning it was the difference between the amount of money won)

aka any (random) item spawns would mean random tournament winners