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Tough Guy: Not Tough Enough?

Tough Guy: Buff it, Nerf it, or Good Enough?


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    45

pitfall356

Smash Apprentice
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We all know about Bowser's Tough Guy armor, and how it can be situationally useful. However, I often feel like it's not tough enough. It is very useful in a couple of MUs (Luigi's fireball, Ness's fire, and Mac's jab if you don't accidentally airdodge after the initial jabs). On the other hand, it stops working fairly quickly against most attacks, and anyone that knows about Bowser's armor won't bother using their ignorable attacks.

Crouching can be used to prolong our armor's usefulness, but once again this is situational since most attacks that can be armored in this way only work when at 0%, or force us to be completely immobile at the time of taking the attack. We can crouch out of a dash pretty quick, luckily, but it's still not easy to pull off. It's also arguably better to just use our shield, since perfect shielding is so effective if it can be pulled off, and it comes out at frame 1.

How do you all feel about Bowser being a Tough Guy? Is he even tough enough, or should he learn to actually take a hit? Is there a way to really abuse tough guy throughout an entire match, or is it only situationally useful against certain characters at certain percents?

(By the way, this doesn't really matter much because nobody uses equipment, but if you keep stacking defense on Bowser, his TG armor increases even more. Not by much, mind you, but it does get a little stronger.)
 

MrEh

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Tough Guy is overall pretty useless, but it's not something that should be buffed.

Passive Super Armor is a toxic mechanic. Having Tough Guy any better than it already is would be ridiculous.
 

pitfall356

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Passive Super Armor is a toxic mechanic. Having Tough Guy any better than it already is would be ridiculous.
This I can understand. Why ever throw any punches if every time you do you're just ramming a freight train into your face? This seemed like the big problem when the game just came out and Little Mac was tearing through everything thrown at him. Super armor abuse will definitely give you a sharp edge to compete with if you know how to handle it.

However, it's not like we're buffing this armor to levels even close to those. Bowser shouldn't be able to tank any hits that are a little bit stronger than a poke. I question why Mario's fireball makes him flinch at all, especially at low percents. Kirby's rapid jabs stun him, but not the first two jabs. Inversely, Mac's first two jabs push him into the air a little, and the rapid jabs don't actually flinch him. The way this armor works is bonkers and confusing.

Crouching gives him stronger armor (and thus more launch resistance, I would assume, do to how the armor works), but by doing anything at all you forfeit your bonus armor, thus rendering this possible benefit completely moot! Being able to crawl through Falco's laser would actually be very useful. Instead we're forced to sit in place so that we don't flinch, and in the end it would be better to simply put up our shield. I mean, sometimes I like to take a little bonus damage to confuse my opponent while I build up rage, but in the end this is a risky move and it's better to avoid taking any damage at all.

I guess I'm trying to find a reason to justify Tough Guy. When you get the metal box and your character turns to complete metal, you are given huge launch resistance. You're also given a bit of super armor. I'm under the assumption that they made Bowser so heavy that it ended up activating this flinch resistance that being very heavy gives you. When you make your character heavy enough, he gains this "tough guy" trait. Bowser is just so heavy that it is naturally activated at low percents against weak attacks, in the same way that you are stunned and launched at higher percents with the metal effect on. If he were made heavier (aka giving him more defense through equipment), he gains more of this natural super armor. Frankly Bowser is heavy enough.

I started ******* around with the metal box on bowser with luigi attacking me. Fireballs didn't flinch past 200%, his first two jabs connected but not the third - they were armored through and I took a swing. The launchers at the end of jabs should definitely knock him away but at earlier percents and with these jabs and pokes, he oughtta live up to that tough guy standard, you know? Maybe I just feel like he needs to be buffed when in reality he really is quite the powerhouse. I mean, I know quite well the power he packs as it is.
 
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S_B

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I think Sakurai needs to figure out a way to make heavier characters viable without resorting to gimmicks that will probably only succeed in overpowering them in casual play.

Tough guy is basically useless, except for running through Weegee's fireballs and MM's lemons. Ultimately, the mechanic just winds up feeling poorly thought out and only half implemented, like it was something that made more sense as an experiment in beta than a finalized "feature" in the shipped game.

As it stands, I would almost suggest scrapping TG entirely, or at least applying it globally based upon weight vs. percentage to all characters (which would only really give it to characters over a certain weight rating).
 

MagiusNecros

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Tough Guy is overall pretty useless, but it's not something that should be buffed.

Passive Super Armor is a toxic mechanic. Having Tough Guy any better than it already is would be ridiculous.
Mac pretty much has passive armor on his smash attacks.

So yeah.

I feel like tough guy should tank the same stuff a Gordo can.
 

Volimutt

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Lets not forget Bowser has Up-Smash which stops almost anything cold! I fought this Charizard a few days ago and anytime he would Flare Blitz, Up-Smash would stuff it No matter the Direction or angle he charge at me from. Use it responsibly and it's hard to trade with Bowser
 

MagiusNecros

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Lets not forget Bowser has Up-Smash which stops almost anything cold! I fought this Charizard a few days ago and anytime he would Flare Blitz, Up-Smash would stuff it No matter the Direction or angle he charge at me from. Use it responsibly and it's hard to trade with Bowser
Only from the front and above. It is a good tool.
 

S_B

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Also, this thread should've been called "Tough guy ain't ENOUGH, guy!"
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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I'm a little torn, to be honest. I like character specific mechanics like Tough Guy, but it's really just a gimmick. It's based on knockback (and by extension damage, which directly influences knockback in Smash 4) so only the very weakest moves in this entire game can be armored. It's a gimmick really. Similar to PM Bowser who has light armor during his crouch, crawl, and...charging Upsmash? A gimmick.

That said, If Bowser didn't have tough guy at all, I am 90% certain Mega Man would be our worst MU by far. Really, all the shiek mains would take a seat. But thanks to tough guy, we can totally disrespect Mega Man's neutral game and zoning.

I don't want to see Tough Guy buffed, but I wouldn't mind some mechanical changes. For instance. I've found that in the first two or three frames of Bowser's crawling animation, his crouching tough guy armor is still in effect. Allowing you to creep forward a millimeter at a time while being pelted by Falco lasers. Why not make it so crouching tough guy is in effect for crawling in general? It would give Bowser's crawl some much needed utility, especially since he doesn't become a very low target when crawling.
 

MagiusNecros

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I'd rather see Autoguard on all his shell attacks.

Dsmash and Dair mainly. Make Dsmash good for something.
 

MrEh

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Mac pretty much has passive armor on his smash attacks.

So yeah.
Armor on certain moves is not the same thing as having passive armor.

Certain moves having super armor is a common mechanic in many fighting games. These moves are usually balanced around the fact that they cost resources to use, or are usually punishable if wiffed/blocked. (Both cases apply in smash.)
 
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MagiusNecros

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It is balanced by Mac getting his goose cooked if you get him airborne.

Even still it can difficult to use that gimmick on his smashes correctly. But can be rewarding.
 

pitfall356

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Why not make it so crouching tough guy is in effect for crawling in general?
I was thinking the same thing. What's the point of having better crouch armor if it's gone when you move? This extra armor would give a fantastic new option both in early and late %s. Being able to tank things like Luigi's fireball later on, and maybe even Ness's fire, would allow us to push through setups and stop them from gaining easy kills.
 

Godzillionaire

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I want to see it buff just to see how insane it would be. Also it'd be funny to see the opponent's reaction when they hit you with a smash attack head on and Bowser just stands there not even budging!
 

MagiusNecros

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I would prefer tough guy giving Bowser super armor against any attack that did 10% or less when he reached say 100%. If Lucario can get absurd bonuses by taking damage then why not Bowser.

All the other heavies that matter have some form of super armor against anything that isn't a grab.
 

pitfall356

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hit you with a smash attack head on and Bowser just stands there not even budging!
not even budging!
pls no
The idea is to make Tough Guy actually useful without it being overpowered. Something that can make a difference in a match if used correctly, so that Bowsers have a tool for tanking an attack and dishing one out in response, instead of trying to dodge or shield it and thus lose the punish window.

I would prefer tough guy giving Bowser super armor against any attack that did 10% or less when he reached say 100%. If Lucario can get absurd bonuses by taking damage then why not Bowser.

All the other heavies that matter have some form of super armor against anything that isn't a grab.
This sounds radical, though. Bowser already has it pretty good, this insane a buff is unnecessary.
What kind of super armor are we talking about? List off some characters and the armor they get.
 

MagiusNecros

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Charizard rock smash and Ganon warlock punch can ignore any attack.
 
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pitfall356

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Charizard rock smash and Ganon warlock punch can ignore any attack.
Those are move-specific and have quite noticeable windup. Usmash has a lot of priority and plenty of invincibility when hit in the right place, with less windup. Pretty sure Bowser doesn't need armor to that degree.
 

MagiusNecros

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I do have another idea on how to make tg more practical. But I want to ask how the properties of tough guy are factored.

I am thinking it must be active on the ground but I would also like to move during crouch and still have tg active. It is worded that it is more effective when Bowser is healthy so maybe the corresponding knock back he receives can be cut in half until say 50%.
 

pitfall356

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I do have another idea on how to make tg more practical. But I want to ask how the properties of tough guy are factored.

I am thinking it must be active on the ground but I would also like to move during crouch and still have tg active. It is worded that it is more effective when Bowser is healthy so maybe the corresponding knock back he receives can be cut in half until say 50%.
tg is active in the air as long as he is hit by a move that would trigger it. tg is only active as long as he has low enough percent to tank the hit. It's pretty easy to take 50% quickly, especially considering the fact that hitstun renders him slow as ****.

I think the big buffs that would help tg would be to lessen/remove hitstun during tg, and allow movement during crouch armor. Perhaps make crouch armor more resilient against projectiles, considering how often he can be blocked out by a wall of hell from enemy links and super fighting robots.
 

S_B

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Charizard rock smash and Ganon warlock punch can ignore any attack.
Not to be "that guy", but I've definitely hit Ganon out of the WL punch. I'm pretty sure he gets a form of tough guy while doing it that may actually get stronger as the move goes on, but it's definitely possible to hit him hard enough to interrupt it.
 

MagiusNecros

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Not to be "that guy", but I've definitely hit Ganon out of the WL punch. I'm pretty sure he gets a form of tough guy while doing it that may actually get stronger as the move goes on, but it's definitely possible to hit him hard enough to interrupt it.
His super armor doesn't activate at the beginning and ends as he throws the punch.
 

MrEh

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Ganon and Zard have regular super armor on Warlock Punch and Rock Smash.

Warlock Punch's armor doesn't kick in until like frame 10 or something though, so you can hit him during the startup.
 

S_B

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Ganon and Zard have regular super armor on Warlock Punch and Rock Smash.

Warlock Punch's armor doesn't kick in until like frame 10 or something though, so you can hit him during the startup.
Ah, okay, but it's definitely later than frame 10. I've dash attacked so many Ganons out of it and it HAD to be later than 10...
 

MrEh

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Warlock Punch (ground)
Begins super armor on real frame 11
Ends super armor on real frame 63
Still not as hilarious as Rock Hurl though. Frame 1 super armor lol.
 
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