-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Tips against marth?
- Thread starter Nox_SSBM
- Start date
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
So, this is just going off of stuff that has been exhibited before and the little bit of work we've done in the Discord mixed in with more basic general theorycrafting, BUT:
If Marth makes the mistake of shielding when you laser in, then grab is free. A grab on a low % Marth means you can uthrow fair for like... I think 30-40%, which is pretty nice. Marth's "10 mile long sword" has one very simple weakness: no lasting hitboxes. If you can laser and then DD right in front of him (but out of fsmash/JC grab range) and force him to whiff something, then you should be able to then create an opening from it on reaction. Also, Marth's OoS options are pretty bad overall, so if he shields an approach, SHFFL nair shinegrab should be pretty easy money, and that goes back to the uthrow stuff I mentioned before.
(People can correct me here if I'm wrong,) but from the bit of testing I've done so far, Marth is possible but hard to pillar. Aerial -> WD out -> almost instant DJ -> FF through with the late hit of dair. AFAIK the first time or two you do that you can get a shine if you're really smooth, but utilt is way easier.
Recovering past Marth is literally the bane of low-level Falco's. Basically, you need to mix them up as hard as you can. DJ to a position where you'd normally sideB and then upB choosing a weird angle, get a good grasp of M2K angles (ride wall for sweetspot) and Mangle's (going high and FFing to edge around their hitbox), and even do some high shortened sideBs to mix them up. Figure out where/when you're able to sideB edgecancel as your recovery and mix that in to your play, too.
Once you've got the edge, it's still not easy. If they're not expecting it, <100% getup attack is a pretty effective tool, and DJ falling dair from ledge can work very rarely, but the main mixup you'll want to have control over is ledgedash shine/utilt vs double lasers from ledge. The basic idea here is that if they respect your ledgedash and give you that amount of stage back for free, then they're almost definitely gonna give you enough room to get the bit of damage put on by the lasers. As one last mixup, you can also add in ledgehop waveland on side platforms sometimes.
Random addition: once you're on ledge, mixing up how many times you refresh invincibility (if at all) will probably mess with a lot of Marth's. If you can firebird stall for like 30 seconds and lure them into a false sense of security, it may be easier to catch them off guard and make it into an opening.
If Marth makes the mistake of shielding when you laser in, then grab is free. A grab on a low % Marth means you can uthrow fair for like... I think 30-40%, which is pretty nice. Marth's "10 mile long sword" has one very simple weakness: no lasting hitboxes. If you can laser and then DD right in front of him (but out of fsmash/JC grab range) and force him to whiff something, then you should be able to then create an opening from it on reaction. Also, Marth's OoS options are pretty bad overall, so if he shields an approach, SHFFL nair shinegrab should be pretty easy money, and that goes back to the uthrow stuff I mentioned before.
(People can correct me here if I'm wrong,) but from the bit of testing I've done so far, Marth is possible but hard to pillar. Aerial -> WD out -> almost instant DJ -> FF through with the late hit of dair. AFAIK the first time or two you do that you can get a shine if you're really smooth, but utilt is way easier.
Recovering past Marth is literally the bane of low-level Falco's. Basically, you need to mix them up as hard as you can. DJ to a position where you'd normally sideB and then upB choosing a weird angle, get a good grasp of M2K angles (ride wall for sweetspot) and Mangle's (going high and FFing to edge around their hitbox), and even do some high shortened sideBs to mix them up. Figure out where/when you're able to sideB edgecancel as your recovery and mix that in to your play, too.
Once you've got the edge, it's still not easy. If they're not expecting it, <100% getup attack is a pretty effective tool, and DJ falling dair from ledge can work very rarely, but the main mixup you'll want to have control over is ledgedash shine/utilt vs double lasers from ledge. The basic idea here is that if they respect your ledgedash and give you that amount of stage back for free, then they're almost definitely gonna give you enough room to get the bit of damage put on by the lasers. As one last mixup, you can also add in ledgehop waveland on side platforms sometimes.
Random addition: once you're on ledge, mixing up how many times you refresh invincibility (if at all) will probably mess with a lot of Marth's. If you can firebird stall for like 30 seconds and lure them into a false sense of security, it may be easier to catch them off guard and make it into an opening.
DrumBeater02
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2016
- Messages
- 19
Mind games seem to work for me. Try rushing in and instead of attacking get out, I do this every once in a while and I can usually punish decently well if they throw out a f-smash or something to that affect.
SSG SAX GAMER
Smash Apprentice
dash dance, laser, and mind game your way into an approach to him. Also remember that if you don't feel comfortable approaching, you don't have to! Your falco, if you want to, you could just spam lasers and make marth approach you on bad terms. Also, like fe_hector said, they aren't lasting hitboxes so what i like to do is to run up wavedash back or to do a shallow short hop/empty short hop to bait out a fair and you can punish by moving in. Also in case you didn't know, a way to move faster with falco is to dash and instantly wavedash so that's how you can go in after baiting out the fair. Also you know how Falco can do a short hop and pull out his gun but not actually throw out a laser? do that and it will trigger them to do one of a few things, counter (this is rare though, usually new players do this after watching the documentary because they think it'll work from that one time ken did it to pc chris), shield, or short hop. If they try the first when you didn't throw out a laser, that's a free f-smash, if they try to short hop you can beat that with turn around up-tilt sometimes, and if they shield then that's good because letting go of shield takes a while so they have to either roll/spot dodge out, wavedash out, or jump out. The important thing with knowing which they do is observing their reaction when you actually throw out lasers and see if they do something different depending on the range at which the laser is thrown.
Audos
Smash Apprentice
A great rule of thumb is to keep marth above you. His short timeframe on his hitboxes is by far his biggest neutral weakness, but in the punish game once you land a hit you want to keep him above you until you can knock him off stage. Stealing his jump is straight up fabulous for falco even though it can be a little hard to do.
It's honestly hard to go over the punish game versus marth because there are so many little advantages of each situation after you land a hit, but extending your combos on him is almost always a mix up. If I can recommend anything it is to find a way to record yourself fighting marth, look for situations where you could have covered how they escaped your combo.
And finally think about how they look for grabs. Some marths love to dash dance into a direct grab that you can't react to, some like to do retreating dashdances to make you wiff a dair so they can grab you. Some try to read your pressure on shield to land a lot of grabs. Some try to bait you into getting hit by an ariel so they can link a grab. Every marth is a little different, but almost all of them try to find the grab because of how potent their punish is off of it. The better an option is, the more the opponent will try and abuse it. Most amazing moves create their own weaknesses by being to strong not to use in most situations, something that is true for much more than just marth's grab. Keep that in mind when you are having trouble dealing with any really strong options in the future as well.
It's honestly hard to go over the punish game versus marth because there are so many little advantages of each situation after you land a hit, but extending your combos on him is almost always a mix up. If I can recommend anything it is to find a way to record yourself fighting marth, look for situations where you could have covered how they escaped your combo.
And finally think about how they look for grabs. Some marths love to dash dance into a direct grab that you can't react to, some like to do retreating dashdances to make you wiff a dair so they can grab you. Some try to read your pressure on shield to land a lot of grabs. Some try to bait you into getting hit by an ariel so they can link a grab. Every marth is a little different, but almost all of them try to find the grab because of how potent their punish is off of it. The better an option is, the more the opponent will try and abuse it. Most amazing moves create their own weaknesses by being to strong not to use in most situations, something that is true for much more than just marth's grab. Keep that in mind when you are having trouble dealing with any really strong options in the future as well.
Last edited: