Tier List Speculation

[RayMyFurio]

1v1 me in the wildy scrub lmfao LOL fraud

At least someone has the fleshnuggets to call Oracle out on his overratedness and narcissism. If he didnt think he was gods gift to smash bros i would almost feel sorry for taking away his lunch money

 

[Nguz95]

I can feel myself being Enlightened.

 

[RayMyFurio]

Every week someone new shows up... Let me guess, you'll bop him with Mario?

No mario is overpowered his fireballs are unbeatable and too fast. Ill be playing a fair charavter like luigi.

 

[Nguz95]

A clever ruse, but I will not be fooled. Whether they be called Locke, Voltaire, or Diderot, they all come from the same place.

 

[Paradoxium]

No mario is overpowered his fireballs are unbeatable and too fast. Ill be playing a fair charavter like luigi.

Once someone spammed fire balls against me, and i was GnW. I absorbed 3, and the very first chance i got i hit him with it. He died in one hit, 0 to death in one hit. Greatest feeling ever.

 

[RayMyFurio]

No seriously im gonna pound this fraud oracles face into the dirt, and show how a real texan plays professional video games. If he was really as good as you all say hed have accepted my challenge and be on his way to my house by now

 

[RayMyFurio]

Just because you can beat something doesnt make it beatable, marios fireballs are op and need to have more lag. Somewhere around luigi level is a good place for mario to be balance wise

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just because you can beat something doesnt make it beatable

...

THAT IS LITERALLY THE GODDAMN DEFINITION

 

[RayMyFurio]

Its a metaphor

 

[Nguz95]

No romanticism here. We only ascribe to enlightenment ideals on this thread.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Haha, I'm no where near any of the other Lucas, like people have said Xanadu is just a weekly stream that's popular. There's a lot of great players (Neon, Calabrel if he still plays Lucas, Oracle who I don't think mains him anymore, Burnsy) A lot of development comes from discussion and play from everyone, just 'cause you don't SEE it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I'm pretty garbage at Lucas anyway.

No need to discuss the skill levels of our locations, there are a lot of talented players in Project M across the world!

 

[RayMyFurio]

No romanticism here. We only ascribe to enlightenment ideals on this thread.

...youre enlightening me? And to think I was saying Oracle was a narcissist LOL he deserves a medal if he can stay as tame as he is when he hangs around elitist guys like yourself, after I beat Oracle ill see what i can do with the smashboards breed of project m players being so self absorbed

 

[Oracle]

...lol? What did I do to piss in your cheerios

 

[9bit]

He just picks a person to rag on when he makes a new troll account. Be honored. You're apparently in the same league of worthiness as Strong Bad.

 

[Plum]

you actually pissed in his cheerios
I saw it

 

[Nguz95]

...youre enlightening me? And to think I was saying Oracle was a narcissist LOL he deserves a medal if he can stay as tame as he is when he hangs around elitist guys like yourself, after I beat Oracle ill see what i can do with the smashboards breed of project m players being so self absorbed

Shucks, looks like I missed. No point in explaining a joke that failed, so I guess I'll try again next time.

 

[RayMyFurio]

Shucks, looks like I missed. No point in explaining a joke that failed, so I guess I'll try again next time.

If its an inside joke or a meme or something then you shouldnt have expected it to succeed in the first place.

 

[RayMyFurio]

He just picks a person to rag on when he makes a new troll account. Be honored. You're apparently in the same league of worthiness as Strong Bad.

Wtf if you guys get trolls every week its because of your attitudes, for real chill out. Theres nothing "honorable" about having people want to put you down on a weekly basis. If you asked me, id say you all would need a serious attitude adjustment, but why would you care what I have to say when clearly youre the greatest thing since sliced bread? If having more people hate you is how you guys feel special about yourselves then I have nothing to say to you other than Ill be accepting MMs from any of you when I get the chance.

 

[Oracle]

Welp if you really want to mm then hit me up im at tournaments basically every weekend lol. Sorry if one of my posts rustled your jimmies but tbh im usually just calling out scrubs so of that hurt your feelings its not a good sign

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

 

[Paradoxium]

No seriously im gonna pound this fraud oracles face into the dirt, and show how a real texan plays professional video games. If he was really as good as you all say hed have accepted my challenge and be on his way to my house by now

You do realize your challenging Oracle right? Like for reals?

Good luck man, your gonna need a lot of it


wait are you who i think you are?

Answer this damn question, were you or were you not on the Dolphin Netplay chat today?

 

[RayMyFurio]

You do realize your challenging Oracle right? Like for reals?

Good luck man, your gonna need a lot of it


wait are you who i think you are?

Answer this damn question, were you or were you not on the Dolphin Netplay chat today?

Well since im alreasy the best player in texas theres not much reason to be afraid of someone whos beneath me. Results dont matter either, so what if oracle got 7th at apex? Just look at professor pro, hes better than rolex and didnt even attend.

And to answer your question, no i dont use dolphin netplay chat.

 

[Paradoxium]

well then, i hope your match goes well. Be sure to record it so we can all see the best player in Texas in action.


I'll leave this link here for when the match is over, you're probably gonna need it
http://www.911rape.org/getting-help/finding-support/counseling

 

[Oracle]

So are we gonna mm? If your next post isnt a time and place then im just gonna put you on the ignore list lol

 

[RayMyFurio]

Since pats 4 might be melee only, ill MM you at whobo 6 if i can get there. It looks pricy but with the dough ill be raking in from 1st prize and potential MMs the costs should be covered.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Holy **** @ Hylian can you just ban this guy's 7th account already
And permaban his IP seriously all these dummies just feeding him attention

 

[RayMyFurio]

Holy **** @ Hylian can you just ban this guy's 7th account already
And permaban his IP seriously all these dummies just feeding him attention

Ban me or not, im still crushing oracle. Also if i do get banned, at mlg or whatever pm national is going to be held next i will personally trashtalk you on stream when i get interviewed for my first place victory.

 

[Oracle]

So youre in houston? Are you luciano/kalo? The trolling would make so much more sense lol

 

[XXXX1000]

joined yesterday, immediately picks fight with someone in this thread, happens to live very close to person he's picking fights with, promises money matches but won't be specific. I thought you were all better than this.

anyway, I think Samus is not yet fully understood, I always hear tons of things about how great her ice form is (what's the official name for those forms, anyway?) but I'm pretty convinced that going fire or ice is going to end up being match-up specific or maybe even just player preference so it'll take some time to crack open

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

The only talk I've seen for Ice Beam hasn't been so hot (Woah surprice surprice) I think I HAVE seen good things about Ice Missiles though, pretty sure they're AT THE VERY LEAST pretty cool with their movement compared to the regular ones.

 

[RayMyFurio]

So youre in houston? Are you luciano/kalo? The trolling would make so much more sense lol

Lol no im more powerful than anyone you can think of and i play mario predominantly. Im a different beast entirely. I havent played with either tsc or kalo at the smashfests ive been to either. And yeah im a houston (katy actually) smasher

 

[9bit]

joined yesterday, immediately picks fight with someone in this thread, happens to live very close to person he's picking fights with, promises money matches but won't be specific. I thought you were all better than this.

anyway, I think Samus is not yet fully understood, I always hear tons of things about how great her ice form is (what's the official name for those forms, anyway?) but I'm pretty convinced that going fire or ice is going to end up being match-up specific or maybe even just player preference so it'll take some time to crack open

20XX Samus edge-cancelled form-shift-taunts to continue combos and do mixups. I'm actually pretty excited to see what comes of Samus. You just know there's gonna be some new Hugs to come in and just rock Samus. I'm drunk. Did that make sense.

 

[DrinkingFood]

20XX Samus edge-cancelled form-shift-taunts to continue combos and do mixups. I'm actually pretty excited to see what comes of Samus. You just know there's gonna be some new Hugs to come in and just rock Samus. I'm drunk. Did that make sense.

you're an alcohol

 

[Hylian]

Holy **** @ Hylian can you just ban this guy's 7th account already
And permaban his IP seriously all these dummies just feeding him attention

You probably won't be seeing him for awhile.

 

[Oracle]

You banned him?

 

[JOE!]

that's kind of just semantics, though, because they could give the shine 10 frames of startup and then it wouldn't be able to do many of those things, and then it wouldn't be broken, you might call it simply overpowered, or might call it decent or even bad. With enough changes, any character or move can be taken from the best in the game to the worst in the game and back again. Some people call things "overpowered", some say "broken", some say "stupid", it's really all the same, or at least people mean the same thing when they say that kind of thing.

His point still stands: "numerical imbalance" is what OP is, in that if you can just tweak the attributes but keep the core design in tact it is just UP/OP.

Broken is when the core design is flawed fundamentally, like if Falco's blaster shot in bursts of 5 with the same fire rate we have now. You can;t really numerically tweak that without it being rediculous, the core mechanic (burst shot) would need to be re-designed.

The problem lies when people start throwing those words at characters/mechanics they don't like without actually thinking about it. Fox's usmash is one of the strongest in the game: does that make it overpowered? Someone's usmash has to be the strongest in the game. But looking at Fox, he has tons of other tools in his arsenal that compliment the usmash - are those tools overpowered, or is it the usmash? What if Fox is the right kind of power, and everyone else is underpowered? "overpowered" and "underpowered" imply that things are not the way they SHOULD be, which is very different from being the "best", and tier list discussion should not be about balance changes, or what is "overpowered", it should be about what is the "best".

Well, there is a difference between "Strongest" and "Best". Fox not only has one of the strongest smashes, but it is incredibly fast relative to most other smashes with it's kind of power (sans Pikachu).

 

[9bit]

I'm watching the American The Ring right now, again. Saw it back when it first came out. It's still just as bad.

The thing is, there's some really good shots in this movie. Like, the cinematographer seemed to know what he was doing. But there's just also so many bad shots. It's not even scary it's just kinda boring.


Dammit I thought this was the Social Thread. See this is what happens.

OK so like Falco is really really good in this game right? Did you guys see Kels popping off on that Link at Wavedash Wednesdays recently? Like holy ****! I think it was Las/z. Kels just went nuts. I put Falco as #1 in PM. Seriously. Better than Fox in this game.

 

[Terotrous]

You know, I was thinking about it, and I think I've figured out the reason Olimar seems to bad to me. It's because I main Ivy, and Olimar is basically just a worse Ivysaur.

I didn't realize it at first, but their movesets are actually really similar in a lot of ways. Neutral B is a "powerup" move of sorts. Forward B is a horizontally travelling projectile. Up B is a tether that also works as an attack on a 45 degree angle (though it's not a Zair so no airdodging into it). They have similar aerials too. Nair is a rapid hitting shield pressure attack. All of their other aerials have disjoint hitboxes. For recovery, both have a move they can use to get a little bounce. They both have ranged grabs, and similar grab follow-ups off a throw that slams you into the ground. They can also both get the same kind of combos off their dash attack. Finally, they both have an F-Smash that quickly throws something in front of them (in Ivy's case it's her face) and a two hit jab attack.

The problem is that Ivy is basically better than Olimar even when he has good Pikmin, and she's that good all the time. Their aerials are similar, but Ivy's attacks reach farther, especially Bair. Her up B hits harder and seems to come out faster, and it also seems to grab the ledge from farther away even when Olimar has 4 Pikmin. Ivy's forward B eats other projectiles and she can get a followup after it, and she doesn't have to sacrifice anything to use it. Ivy's jab has a lot more range and general utility. Ivy's heavier than Olimar, and she can heal herself a little bit by hitting the opponent. Ivy's Dair is a much better gimp than any move Olimar has because it bounces her to safety after use. And every couple stocks, she gets a super powerful kill / edgeguard move that lets her kill at low percents.

The only real advantage I can see Olimar having over Ivy is Up Smash. Ivy's USmash also hits like a truck, has combo followups, and even heals her, but it's definitely a little slower, you can't really toss it out raw and expect it to hit often the way you can with Olimar's USmash. But even then, Nair is still an acceptable OOS "get off me" move for Ivy, she's not inordinately lacking in that department.


I feel that Olimar basically lost the advantages he had over her (longer reaching Up B, more spammable forward B, etc) when his number of pikmin were cut. If he still had 5 or 6, I think there'd be more pros and cons between them.

 

[Kaeldiar]

>_>

Oh my God, I'm sorry! I just haven't gotten to see you play...

And for all the haters out there who think I'm saying "He did well at Xanadu, that means he's the best," I'm not. Xanadu is in my area so I tend to follow it. I'm saying that I have seen them play very solid Lucases(?), and that more and more good Lucas players means that his metagame becomes developed. People figure out what works and what doesn't work. It's important, I wanted to give a small congrats to Yars.

Honestly though, guys placing top 8 at highly "advertised" (for lack of a better word) tournaments is what makes people really delve into the metagame. "Wow! That guy just tore apart everyone as Ice Climbers! Maybe I should take a closer look at this character!" If Lucas consistently makes top 8, which he is, then I can see him really becoming a threat, because people are going to figure out his weaknesses, how to protect those weaknesses, legendary combos into DACUS KOs, etc

 

[Nausicaa]

attributes recent success to attitude.
What he's trying to say is the metagame for most, if not all, Brawl newcomers is underdeveloped, so characters that may seem un-viable may in fact be dangerous.

I like how you put it this way, both parts of the quote.
Mental developments having an effect on things in the mundane world, like capacity to play video games in accordance with ideals?
NAWWWWWW
^Joyful sarcasm.
This is the stuff that I live for, makes me proud of people, and the community at large. <3
At least once a week somewhere on the forum or elsewhere, somebody speaks of a revelation that helps their game.
If only we were to focus on that.
I could do a little more of it... as much as anyone, especially when it's so distinctly what I promote around these things. XD
Smash4Lyfe

It's like that whole 'same rant every 2 months thing' the community club for this has been up and running since day-1 2.1, and is showing results.

Xanadu is dabes.
Seriously though, they have taken the time and effort to get a really devoted fanbase. In fact, I'd say they are the most famous weekly PM stream on Twitch right now. They may not always have the strongest players, but they know how to put on a show, and the people that do go are in fact just as devoted to PM as anyone in the stronger regions. They really have something special going on, and I'm grateful I have the chance to be a part of it.

I like the way you put things and quote you because it's good.

Once someone spammed fire balls against me, and i was GnW. I absorbed 3, and the very first chance i got i hit him with it. He died in one hit, 0 to death in one hit. Greatest feeling ever.

I got a Bowser with a full-charge bucket from his Fire-Breath near a ledge, and it did very little...
Then I hit him with a 9 as he recovered... he still didn't die.
I was sadface... but I love Bowser too so it was pretty awesome.


OLIMAR TALK
I've been waiting for someone to mention this throughout the WHOLE conversation, but there hasn't really been much about it. Terotrous^ touched on it, but still not quite.

Here's the details in context...
Pivot-Grab was mentioned as good or 'almost unrivaled' earlier, but there's Yoshi, who has a better one in basically all ways, from Dash speed to range/hit-box/speed/whatever of the move itself, and less of a big deal, without any conditions. He Dash-Grab is like that too, but at least his Standing Grab is trash.

On top of this, Yoshi can almost contest Peach on the amoeba-hit-box end to force people into their Shields easily, and gets ridiculous combos off any Grab on any Character at any %, not that Olimar can't either, but Yoshi has all this + Peach silliness (play a doubles match against these 2 together and there's no such thing as a 'defensive' position, there's comboing them, or running for your life, because your Shield will just auto-shattered at the conceptualization of how many ways they can destroy is before it even comes up in any closed environment)

The thing Olimar really does have (not that Peach or Yoshi can't force people to approach at some point [FC's and Turnips and DJC's and DDs spaced with their close ground mix-ups induces a danger-zone at some point inevitably]), is that Olimar can Side-B at people, and camp in the sense that he GAINS from 'idling' and can do a lot from out of harms way.
He's linear, sure, but linear can work both short AND long term (Marth/Falcon/Jiggs), and will likely work quite functionally for almost everyone.

Can Olimar, with this linearity, even if you had optimal 'Pikmin' conditions 100% of the time (like as if literally plucking was the easiest thing ever to work around), does what he has, just by itself, make him as good as others?

Screw the 'plucking' issues or the 'boring' issues or the whatever-else conditions.

He's linear, that's the only condition that actually comes into play in-game, the rest is just how he functions.
Is the thing he does (that ONE thing he does that makes him good in Smash)... enough to be good in Project: M 3.02?
That's all that matters.

There are examples of single-tasked characters being broken, so it's possible. It has nothing to do with the 'conditions' of how he makes his stuff work, it has everything to do with whether his stuff is working as it sh, is enough.

Kingvan Doodoodooze thinks so.

3.02 Expected End-Meta 2-Point Bell-Curve by Bamesy v.16/02/14

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Spoiler

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Spoiler

ain' gon' 'splain shi' jus' 'njoy

Edit: To above Lucas comments...
DACUS and U-Smash in general is over-centralized in Lucas talk, and it translates to play as well.
Peeps have done some cool things with Lucas, but it's only the start of the meta-game. As someone said earlier on this page or the last, "Developing is happening, maybe we can't see it all, but it's happening"
Anyone thinking they've figured out Lucas stuff might have figured out a lot, but I doubt it's even much.
Especially when to-date, the game-play of even the best Lucas play around is still only tinkering with the seeds of the meta-game I described thoroughly in posts on Smashmods the month 2.1 PM came out, let alone what's happened SINCE then. That was ages ago, and we're not even there yet.
I'm proud of everyone (in a <3 together way), from the more mainstream public to the little newer people, the community is doing great and coming along well.
Still, I will always be an advocate of something more, as I have as much enjoyment in everyone having direct observable success in the conventional sense, as I do in how much observable success people have with the first steps of bringing these things to light.

EVERYTHING IS AWESOME
Neon, Oro, Oracle, SB, all the other scrubs that get scrub-talked around here too.
We're all scrubs, and it's a good thing. <3
Mostly you all are though.
ShotsfiredMMforanyoneIevermeetever