Throws with only 1 DI option

[lordhelmet]

What's with the multitude of throws that only allow DI away? These seem to mostly be PM up throws. No DI/DI behind sends you straight up (usually followed by an up air). DI away sends you in an equally free position (usually a forward air). This allows for a ton of free/linear combos that you see over and over. Lucario, Bowser, Sonic off the top of my head. Other examples are Lucas' dthrow and I'm sure there are others.

Are there any throws in any Smash game like this? It seems pretty stupid that I can get these characters on random and autocombo my opponent because he only has two options. Why can't these throws be DI'd behind? Could you imagine Falcon's up throw if the opponent couldn't DI behind? It's already stupidly good. Eliminating 33% of the option tree only makes the game more linear and seems to be coded to make up for lack of character depth (I don't know).

I was thinking about this after I got Sonic on random and was able to up throw -> fair on my first try and never dropped it. When I picked up Falcon it took me weeks to get good at dthrow/uthrow -> knee. The hitstun windows on a lot of the PM characters seem so free and easy to execute compared to the Melee vets. I will use Sonic as an example because I know him better than the other characters I mentioned above. If he uthrows me and I don't DI, it's a free uair chain to death (if I SDI the first hit it's really not that hard to hit me with the second hit only). If I DI, it's (in most cases) still a free uair and almost always (at practically any % with any mid weight and heavier) a free forward air. If I DI the fair away, I cannot recover. Since I have to DI in, it's another free hit. These linear option trees seem to be the case for a lot of these throws. I know that this is the same case for Melee, but some of these combos are just ridiculously free. IE: Fox's uthrow -> uair does not have as a big of a window (it doesn't even work on half the cast) and actually takes time to learn. I'm also not arguing against autocombos in general. I'm arguing against lack of DI options when the difference between the two games is that we can now expand these option trees rather than limit them.

I could just be salty, but I really don't understand why some throws are like this. Thoughts?

Edit since people are missing the point: throws are reaction based and I'm not saying you should have to read your opponent to combo. I'm saying that eliminating "significant" DI on throws like the ones mentioned makes the game more linear. If you could DI behind on Sonic's uthrow, it would still be a free followup. The difference is now that you have options. Maybe there's a platform behind Sonic that you want to land on, etc.

 

[fabulouspants]

upthrow kill move is hype

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I don't think this has been brought up(I'm prolly wrong), solid topic to discuss. Tables to be made?

 

[Strong Badam]

eliminating the option to DI in one direction comes with the negative side-effect of making followups weaker overall (see: ganondorf/lucas). the throws would be strictly better if they sent straight up and allowed DI in both directions.

 

[kaizo13]

i agree

PM has far too many free followups. in Melee, most of the time you needed a good read, or a good read + bad DI for something to connect. Not really the case in P:M

if the pmbr embraced this more, there would be a lot more hype surrounding this game imo

 

[DrinkingFood]

i agree

PM has far too many free followups. in Melee, most of the time you needed a good read, or a good read + bad DI for something to connect. Not really the case in P:M

if the pmbr embraced this more, there would be a lot more hype surrounding this game imo

Yeah falcon's and falco's combos in melee are so difficult, totally read based and not almost purely done on reaction
Lets not forget how un-free fox's uthrow->uair is, if you aren't psychic you're gonna miss that ****
It's weird, melee players, when complaining about brawl, usually start with "Combos are impossible without a hard read!"
But then they come in the PM forums and be all like "Combos should require a read!"
Like seriously guys make up your mind

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah falcon's and falco's combos in melee are so difficult, totally read based and not almost purely done on reaction
Lets not forget how un-free fox's uthrow->uair is, if you aren't psychic you're gonna miss that ****
It's weird, melee players, when complaining about brawl, usually start with "Combos are impossible without a hard read!"
But then they come in the PM forums and be all like "Combos should require a read!"
Like seriously guys make up your mind

Seriously, this.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also this thread title confuses me. There aren't throws that technically only have one DI direction right? What he actually means is that they only have one significant DI direction, right?
Such as a throw sending up and slightly forward, at most you can DI to go straight up which is hardly helping your case, but you can also DI further forward than a straight vertical throw. THAT is what he's talking about, right?

 

[Empyrean]

I don't know if this applies, but I think it is impossible to DI Lucas' down-throw in the direction he's facing. You can either DI in the opposite way or not at all. Someone correct me if this is wrong and/or if I misunderstood the subject.

 

[lordhelmet]

eliminating the option to DI in one direction comes with the negative side-effect of making followups weaker overall (see: ganondorf/lucas). the throws would be strictly better if they sent straight up and allowed DI in both directions.

I don't understand what you mean. Of course if you made Falcon's dthrow send straight up, the throw would be outrageous. I'm talking about throws that already send straight up and don't allow DI behind. How would these throws become better if you had a second DI option?

I don't know if this applies, but I think it is impossible to DI Lucas' down-throw in the direction he's facing. You can either DI in the opposite way or not at all. Someone correct me if this is wrong and/or if I misunderstood the subject.

Yeah this is what I mean and the point of the thread. Accidentally called it Lucas' uthrow in the OP. Will edit.

 

[KhanYe]

this is a great topic. you don't need a strong read to follow up lucas's dthrow or even lucario's dthrow. makes the game slightly more mindless.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't understand what you mean. Of course if you made Falcon's dthrow send straight up, the throw would be outrageous. I'm talking about throws that already send straight up and don't allow DI behind. How would these throws become better if you had a second DI option?

there are no throws that send straight up yet don't allow DI behind. the game's mechanics do not allow for this.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

I need more PM ******** god dammit **** you guys are not what you used to be

 

[lordhelmet]

there are no throws that send straight up yet don't allow DI behind. the game's mechanics do not allow for this.

Okay that makes sense. The throws I mentioned above send at an 85 degree (I can't tell exactly obviously) angle. Do you think the game would be less linear if they sent at a lower angle, like 75 degrees? I can't imagine it would change the faster characters but it could hurt characters like Bowser. This would allow DI away that would be harder to punish and DI behind would at least make a noticeable difference. Or the throws were coded to send straight up then DI would be not be unusual.

 

[~Frozen~]

this is a great topic. you don't need a strong read to follow up lucas's dthrow or even lucario's dthrow. makes the game slightly more mindless.

If you DI Dthrow away Lucario won't be able to followup. It's a mixup with Uthrow, with the optimal DI being opposite directions.

 

[KhanYe]

If you DI Dthrow away Lucario won't be able to followup. It's a mixup with Uthrow, with the optimal DI being opposite directions.

first of all, holy **** i love your lucario and even though you're disagreeing with me, i really hope i get the chance to play ya at some point.

but at 30-40%, unless you're a floaty, it's usually close to a guaranteed followup. i understand the mixup and i'm not saying dthrow is automatic, but it definitely is pretty easy to follow up. not complaining or advocating for a nerf lmao, but just saying.

 

[Mera Mera]

Hey Lordy, this is Goku from WI if you remember.

I think what you're talking about is cause of this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Directional_influence

Check out the pic showing what DI is possible. It turns out the at you can't DI completely left, right, down, or up (it'll round to the nearest possible DI if you do this though). But the result is, while moves that hit diagonally can be altered by +/-18 degrees, moves that hit closer to straight out/up/down can't be DIed perpendicularly, and thus you can only change the angle by a fraction of the amount.

This is in Melee and in PM. I guess there are more completely straight up throws in Melee, but while it's true that this means you can DI forward or backward (since you don't have to make up ground for already being sent slightly forward/backward), it's also true that straight up gives you the lowest angle adjustments. I think as a result of this, PM made a lot of throws go slightly forward/backward so that there'd be DI mix ups with throws where you can guarantee get away if you DI the throw correctly (but if you DI the wrong throw, you're gonna get hit). The thing about Captain Falcon and Fox's up throws is, while you can DI in both directions, in a lot of match ups you can on reaction follow the DI and hit them anyways. True, it's harder since they have more options, but their options are weaker (if that makes sense).

 

[Kankato]

If people are complaining about free followups, why not make more throws combo on reaction like in melee? It requires some sort of read, but not a difficult one. Followups will be much less "free", but still completely possible.

 

[DrinkingFood]

If people are complaining about free followups, why not make more throws combo on reaction like in melee? It requires some sort of read, but not a difficult one. Followups will be much less "free", but still completely possible.

?
read =/= reaction
read- acting in a way to counter an opponent's action based on learning their habits
reaction- acting in a way to counter an opponent's action as you see them doing it

 

[Badge]

I think what you're talking about is cause of this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Directional_influence

Check out the pic showing what DI is possible. It turns out the at you can't DI completely left, right, down, or up (it'll round to the nearest possible DI if you do this though). But the result is, while moves that hit diagonally can be altered by +/-18 degrees, moves that hit closer to straight out/up/down can't be DIed perpendicularly, and thus you can only change the angle by a fraction of the amount.

This was brought up in the tier list thread a while ago, but I believe there was a misunderstanding of the mechanics. The closest thing to a source I could find outside of the vague note on ssbwiki is this post. As far as I understand both the post I just mentioned and the note you quoted, cardinal input directions are unaffected and if you want to DI in a direction within +/- 17.3° of k*90° the input is read as k*90° instead (which would actually make Lucas UpThrow easier to DI right btw). The reason Lucas UpThrow kills at similiar percents independent of DI is just that whether you're send at a 90° or 72° angle makes less of a difference for kill percentages than 72° to 54° (100/95/81% of knockback force goes upwards).

Also: Too many posts in this thread read as if you could alter the launch angle of certain throws in one direction only. That would be false. You can DI all throws in either direction. Lucas' DThrow and Lucario's UpThrow for example have a launch angle of 75°. DI towards straight left/righ changes this to about 90°, DI away to about 60° and both have a noticable effect. Whether the change in direction is significant for followups, of course, is a different matter.

 

[Mera Mera]

This was brought up in the tier list thread a while ago, but I believe there was a misunderstanding of the mechanics. The closest thing to a source I could find outside of the vague note on ssbwiki is this post. As far as I understand both the post I just mentioned and the note you quoted, cardinal input directions are unaffected and if you want to DI in a direction within +/- 17.3° of k*90° the input is read as k*90° instead (which would actually make Lucas UpThrow easier to DI right btw). The reason Lucas UpThrow kills at similiar percents independent of DI is just that whether you're send at a 90° or 72° angle makes less of a difference for kill percentages than 72° to 54° (100/95/81% of knockback force goes upwards).

Also: Too many posts in this thread read as if you could alter the launch angle of certain throws in one direction only. That would be false. You can DI all throws in either direction. Lucas' DThrow and Lucario's UpThrow for example have a launch angle of 75°. DI towards straight left/righ changes this to about 90°, DI away to about 60° and both have a noticable effect. Whether the change in direction is significant for followups, of course, is a different matter.

Yeah, that's where I got the info. I totally didn't notice the small lines in the cardinal directions. It still means you can't DI certain things as well, though now it looks like 90 degrees is easy to DI, and you get the full 18 degrees, and 98.5 degrees you can DI the least.

My bad, I was totally wrong here

 

[The_NZA]

So what is the proper way to DI so Lucas stops wishing that Ness's in the night sky were like shooting stars?