Thoughts on top row of stages...

[MagnesD3]

After watching many tournaments I have noticed that the first row seems always banned at tourneys only available if both parties agree and arent even viable as counterpicks. Playing for myself all of the top row of stages seem like very competitive stages that would allow for interesting counterpicks and would create more dynamic strategy's to countering certain matchups. Im just curious how many people would be ok if the top row were available for the counterpicks in tournies (of course their could be an extra marking out since there would be many more stage selections.) I personally would love to see the PM scene open up to using these stages in competitive play. So do you think the top row should be allowed?

 

[Pika_thunder]

I would be down for that.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Dracula's Castle should be legal.

At least in doubles.

Let me Ike you to death, goddamnit.

 

[Empyrean]

Distant Planet and Dracs should be for doubles only.

Halberd, Rumble Falls and Norfair will most probably remain banned everywhere except if they do something with them.

Metal Cavern and Castle Siege could work in singles, but a lot of people would most probably ban MC since it's small as ****, and not many characters like that.

 

[Comatose]

Iirc the reason a lot of them are banned is because:

1. Some of the stages have bugs (Norfair w/ ICs, nana sometimes just doesnt even spawn)

2. Some of the stages lag (Dracs for doubles has lagged slightly for me on occasion)

3. Some are just not excellent competitive stages (Castle Siege, with the transformation)

4. Its just convenient. People are not as familiar with PM as with melee/brawl yet, as a lot of people who play PM at tournies just play it on the side, and there are a lot more legal stages, so rather than have a TO have to answer the same question 45x, its easy to just make it top banned.

 

[MagnesD3]

Iirc the reason a lot of them are banned is because:

1. Some of the stages have bugs (Norfair w/ ICs, nana sometimes just doesnt even spawn)

2. Some of the stages lag (Dracs for doubles has lagged slightly for me on occasion)

3. Some are just not excellent competitive stages (Castle Siege, with the transformation)

4. Its just convenient. People are not as familiar with PM as with melee/brawl yet, as a lot of people who play PM at tournies just play it on the side, and there are a lot more legal stages, so rather than have a TO have to answer the same question 45x, its easy to just make it top banned.

Now the bug/lag issues I can completely understand until those issues are addressed but all others on the front page should be allowed counterpicks would be more effective imo It honestly shouldnt matter if its easier to ban those stages or not, game quality should be more important imo.

 

[The_NZA]

After watching many tournaments I have noticed that the first row seems always banned at tourneys only available if both parties agree and arent even viable as counterpicks. Playing for myself all of the top row of stages seem like very competitive stages that would allow for interesting counterpicks and would create more dynamic strategy's to countering certain matchups. Im just curious how many people would be ok if the top row were available for the counterpicks in tournies (of course their could be an extra marking out since there would be many more stage selections.) I personally would love to see the PM scene open up to using these stages in competitive play. So do you think the top row should be allowed?

Smashing Grounds (The PM tourney I host on Thursdays in MA) has a rotating map pool which changes bimonthly. For Season 1, we have opted for Apex rules with two exceptions. 1. PS1 is banned, 2. Dracula's castle has replaced Skyworld as a CP. That means Skyworld is banned and Dracula's castle is a Counterpick.

Season 2 will get quite a bit more interesting.

 

[The_NZA]

Distant Planet and Dracs should be for doubles only.

Halberd, Rumble Falls and Norfair will most probably remain banned everywhere except if they do something with them.

Metal Cavern and Castle Siege could work in singles, but a lot of people would most probably ban MC since it's small as ****, and not many characters like that.

Just curious. What don't people like about Norfair? Is it any less fair than say, Skyloft?

 

[Empyrean]

Just curious. What don't people like about Norfair? Is it any less fair than say, Skyloft?

For the life of me, I don't understand either. I've asked about it a few times, and the general consensus is that the stage layout, specifically the wideness of the top platform, encourages circular camping and certain characters are just not fast enough to put up with this. I personally love the stage, and I find that Skyworld has a similar layout, yet no one bans it despite having ledges that **** up most recoveries bigtime (my mistake, missed the part where you said that your weeklies ban it). As for Skyloft, the top right platform is pretty much the same as the one in Norfair, and that stage is even more unorthodox than the latter .

 

[lordvaati]

1 thing I found kinda annoying about the current stage list as well( the starters anyway) is that it's essentially Melee's list+ Smashville. Arguments have been made over that many of the top stages are Much more valid CPs then PS1 for this game, and also that some nutes might be moved to CP( mostly Fountain of Dreams.) I feel that we should relook at everything on page 1 and decide more fitting positions for the new game rather then pull the " carry over the same lists" thing done now.

 

[PastLink]

especially with as many characters and new matchups as there are now. we've gotta experiment with characters to expand and figure out the metagam. naturally experimenting with stages should be a part of that am i right?

 

[MagnesD3]

Also now adding my ruleset for stage selection.

Neutral Stages: 1-2-2-1 format
Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Yoshi Story
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi Island
Final Destination

Counterpick stages: 7 stage bans
Halberd
Dreamland
Norfair
Draculas Castle
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Skyworld
Pokemon Stadium 1
Distant Planet
Rumble Falls
Green Hill Zone
Wario Ware
Metal Cavern
Lylat Cruise


Stages cant be used twice unless agreed on by both players.
If both players agree to a stage no stage banning is required.
If both players agree random select can be used before and after stage bans if they desire.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Personally I was always a fan of Metal Cavern.

But then again I play Bowser.

Kappa

 

[MagnesD3]

Personally I was always a fan of Metal Cavern.

But then again I play Bowser.

Kappa

And you should have the right to counterpick it if your opponent doesnt ban it. Since large characters should excel there.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

And you should have the right to counterpick it if your opponent doesnt ban it. Since large characters should excel there.

Large characters already excel on the other small stages like yoshis and fod. A cp stage should never be a guaranteed win against other characters, stages like metal cavern are too polarizing to be legal. Also norfair is banned for how it ruins recoveries of most characters. If you get hit off of one of the side platforms youre pretty much gimped since its so high up, it moves, and has no edges to grab. Norfair ruins fastfallers, shoryuken styled up special recoveries that want to recover from below, and anybody with a weak horizontal recovery. Its too good for flaoty characters like peach and pit, and mute city in melee is banned for the same reasons. Though dracs castle could be legal and i dont think anybody would contest that.

 

[MagnesD3]

Large characters already excel on the other small stages like yoshis and fod. A cp stage should never be a guaranteed win against other characters, stages like metal cavern are too polarizing to be legal. Also norfair is banned for how it ruins recoveries of most characters. If you get hit off of one of the side platforms youre pretty much gimped since its so high up, it moves, and has no edges to grab. Norfair ruins fastfallers, shoryuken styled up special recoveries that want to recover from below, and anybody with a weak horizontal recovery. Its too good for flaoty characters like peach and pit, and mute city in melee is banned for the same reasons. Though dracs castle could be legal and i dont think anybody would contest that.

Mute city is banned for the cars..

 

[Kati]

I've only been following the community for a few years now, but I always wondered: why not permanently ban certain stages against the specific characters that break them while allowing them to be legal with other m.u's?

While I like all the stages, I'm really curious to see what Norfair would be like without the top platform. I would also like to see the pmbr add miniscule wall collisions to the corners of skyworld and lylat just so that I won't have to hear anyone ***** about their ledges ever again. When I say miniscule, I mean it. Recoveries would still have to be aimed, but grazing the corner by a pixel or so wouldn't doom a character.

 

[PastLink]

why not give norfair grabable ledges? it can be done i'm sure. (the moving platform i mean) it doesn't seem unreasonable.
another thing, MC doesn't garuntee a win for bigger characters. Combo food like D3 and bowser may have less room for people to run away from them, but conversly, all it takes is one good dodge and they may never recover from the pressure. Ivy and zelda have good enough close range games that they aren't really auto-bopped either. but it's a great mix up if you know the opponent prefers zoning and can't handle pressure.

 

[The_NZA]

I've only been following the community for a few years now, but I always wondered: why not permanently ban certain stages against the specific characters that break them while allowing them to be legal with other m.u's?

While I like all the stages, I'm really curious to see what Norfair would be like without the top platform. I would also like to see the pmbr add miniscule wall collisions to the corners of skyworld and lylat just so that I won't have to hear anyone ***** about their ledges ever again. When I say miniscule, I mean it. Recoveries would still have to be aimed, but grazing the corner by a pixel or so wouldn't doom a character.

The ledges are part of what makes those stages good counterpicks against certain people (Roy, Zelda, etc.).

 

[MToaste]

I agree with the notion that certain top stages are more suitable CPs than several middle row stages (PS1 and Skyloft especially). For size, Metal Cavern really isn't much smaller than Green Hill Zone or Yoshi's, and if I recall correctly the blast zones are bigger as well... I do hear people complain about the sloped floor often, though. Skyloft, however, has a more drastic slope in the floor and a layout that makes recovering easier, gimping harder and neutral play somewhat abstract, not to mention blast zones that are very close to the ledges despite the stage being fairly big. I feel like if Skyloft is qualified to be a CP, Metal Cavern should be too, haha.

As for my thoughts on the other top row stages, Halberd has stage hazards, Norfair has some clear issues as well as having a layout that makes gimping hard and gives certain characters silly options (such as Luigi with his up-b), and the other stages kinda feel redundant to me with similar alternative stages that are already legal. Drac's is huge like dreamland only with walls that assist in recovery and a less comfortable, changing platform layout; Rumble Falls encourages stalling and makes killing off the top a bit ridiculous with some characters due to the platform layout; Castle Siege is very similar to Skyloft at the top, the transition can save/kill people and is glitchy, and I just don't personally agree with the rotating platform at the bottom. The Pikmin stage is the only one I could see being suitable, really, but even that I don't think is necessary as it's similar to a bigger PS2. It could see it being argued as a decent PS1 replacement.

 

[Phaiyte]

I actually like Rumble Falls despite what everyone else says.

Dracula's Castle is ok, but it's not a stage that I pick just because I want to. It's ok for doubles though.

SSE:Jungle / Distant Planet is a stage that I actually enjoy picking, even on singles. But I could understand if most people prefer it as a doubles only thing.

I would like Halberd if it remained in flight constantly.

Norfair is Unfair.

Metal Cavern is a slightly good counterpick against Link because the floor messes with his boomerang, but I just don't like picking that stage when I could choose WarioWare instead. Instead of Heavies like Ganon or Bowser, I think Metal Cavern actually benefits flying characters more. Charizard, Pit, Metaknight, maybe Peach. Have fun killing them on that stage lol

 

[Fortress]

I thought that the top row of stages were banned because they were either:

• too big for singles
• generally ****

 

[SOJ]

Iirc the reason a lot of them are banned is because:

1. Some of the stages have bugs (Norfair w/ ICs, nana sometimes just doesnt even spawn)

2. Some of the stages lag (Dracs for doubles has lagged slightly for me on occasion)

Those aren't even true anymore. I fixed the bug on Norfair immediately when it was reported and it no longer causes issues in 3.02. We also reduced the lag on all stages.

why not give norfair grabable ledges? it can be done i'm sure. (the moving platform i mean) it doesn't seem unreasonable.

Giving Norfair ledges on its platform increased camping on that stage tenfold.

 

[PastLink]

Giving Norfair ledges on its platform increased camping on that stage tenfold.

aah, ok that's understandable. i didn't think of it but having ledges set up like that must make shiek a horror.

 

[Kati]

^ it would make recovery too safe as well for some characters. "What? your already grabbing one ledge? fine, np for me."

 

[Empyrean]

I just noticed the other day that Norfair was a viable option at Polybash. I wish more tourneys made it legal. You can check it out, gameplay didn't look much different than Skyworld.

 

[MagnesD3]

I thought that the top row of stages were banned because they were either:

• too big for singles
• generally ****

nope just people afraid to open their horizons unfortunately

 

[Fortress]

I'm sure that Rainbow Cruise and Peach's Castle are wonderful singles stages.

lol wrong page.

But, really. Metal Cavern in singles is *****.