• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Thoughts on Omni's video about choosing top tiers

White_Pointer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
295
NNID
wh1tepointer
So I imagine that by now, all of you have probably seen Omni's video that he posted earlier in the year about why you should choose a high tier character. If you haven't, here is the link: http://smashboards.com/threads/omni-presents-three-reasons-why-you-should-pick-a-top-tier.409459/

What I want to discuss specifically here is point 2. In his second point he says that choosing a top tier is a sign of respect for your opponent, and if you lose, you can easily blame the loss on the character choice rather than admitting you got outplayed, whereas if you chose a top tier you have no excuses.

I agree with that second part in principle - it's tempting as a Samus main to say something like "Well, the matchup against Mario is terrible, I wasn't going to win that anyway", and put the loss down to the matchup instead of acknowledging that you got outplayed.

What I don't agree with is the first part - it's a sign of respect. I want to emphasise the point that the act of choosing a character before the match even starts is not a mark of respect or disrespect. It's just not, in the same way that choosing whether to bat or field first in a baseball or cricket match is not a mark of respect. The mark of respect is shaking the opponent's hand after the match and saying "Well played, you got me", regardless of your character choices. Being disrespectful is if you refuse the hand shake and say something like "You only won because you chose Mario".

I've run into a good variety of characters actually in my local meetups and at offline tournies, many of which are not considered to be high tiers: Ganondorf, Dedede, Link, Toon Link, DK, Charizard, Wario, Pit, Palutena, another Samus (oddly enough), Wii Fit Trainer. In fact, one of Australia's best players plays Wii Fit Trainer, and does amazingly well with the character, winning local and national tournaments consistently (which throws Omni's whole argument out the window, really). Not once have I thought "What is this? They are really disrespecting me!", and likewise not once have I thought "Wow, this guy is really respecting me" if they happen to choose a high tier like Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, Mario or Fox. I'm willing to bet most of you guys haven't done that either.

As a Samus main (a character that's largely considered to be not high tier), the implication that if I don't choose a top tier I am somehow disrespecting my opponent is not only ridiculous, but also somewhat offensive. The idea that my character choice before the match even starts somehow dictates how much respect I'm showing to my opponent in my opinion is stupid and juvenile. Yes, it's true that there are players out there that blame their losses on character choices, or even other silly reasons - professional Starcraft 2 player Naniwa once infamously forfeited a match and walked out of the venue because he believed Polt, his opponent, was able to hear the crowd through the booth and noise cancelling headphones, and was able to snuff out and stop his incoming proxy attack as a result. And it's not just limited to esports, there are professional athletes that blame their losses on the ball, or the state of the playing field. When you're in a competitive environment, that's always going to happen. But those people are the minority, and I don't like being tarred with the same brush as that minority.

I get it that if you want to be a professional fighting game player, you'll choose the character that gives you the best shot at winning. And that's fine. I'll continue to main Samus in Smash 4 at tournies, not because of any kind of disrespect, but because I want to get better. My character choice is not the reason I haven't won a tournament (outside of online tourney mode anyway, which doesn't count). I can always get better, I can always improve, and that's something that will remain true regardless of my character choice.
 

Hark17ball

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
426
Location
Easton, Ma
NNID
Talos21
3DS FC
0662-5845-1699
I just like her as a character more than anything about tiers. If anyone thinks I'm disrespecting them because I play a character I like....they take the game far to seriously, since I disrespect with Dunks, shield breaks and Dirty bombs :laugh:
 

Xygonn

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
768
Location
Seattle Area
NNID
xygonn
So I imagine that by now, all of you have probably seen Omni's video that he posted earlier in the year about why you should choose a high tier character. If you haven't, here is the link: http://smashboards.com/threads/omni-presents-three-reasons-why-you-should-pick-a-top-tier.409459/

What I want to discuss specifically here is point 2. In his second point he says that choosing a top tier is a sign of respect for your opponent, and if you lose, you can easily blame the loss on the character choice rather than admitting you got outplayed, whereas if you chose a top tier you have no excuses.

I agree with that second part in principle - it's tempting as a Samus main to say something like "Well, the matchup against Mario is terrible, I wasn't going to win that anyway", and put the loss down to the matchup instead of acknowledging that you got outplayed.

What I don't agree with is the first part - it's a sign of respect. I want to emphasise the point that the act of choosing a character before the match even starts is not a mark of respect or disrespect. It's just not, in the same way that choosing whether to bat or field first in a baseball or cricket match is not a mark of respect. The mark of respect is shaking the opponent's hand after the match and saying "Well played, you got me", regardless of your character choices. Being disrespectful is if you refuse the hand shake and say something like "You only won because you chose Mario".

I've run into a good variety of characters actually in my local meetups and at offline tournies, many of which are not considered to be high tiers: Ganondorf, Dedede, Link, Toon Link, DK, Charizard, Wario, Pit, Palutena, another Samus (oddly enough), Wii Fit Trainer. In fact, one of Australia's best players plays Wii Fit Trainer, and does amazingly well with the character, winning local and national tournaments consistently (which throws Omni's whole argument out the window, really). Not once have I thought "What is this? They are really disrespecting me!", and likewise not once have I thought "Wow, this guy is really respecting me" if they happen to choose a high tier like Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, Mario or Fox. I'm willing to bet most of you guys haven't done that either.

As a Samus main (a character that's largely considered to be not high tier), the implication that if I don't choose a top tier I am somehow disrespecting my opponent is not only ridiculous, but also somewhat offensive. The idea that my character choice before the match even starts somehow dictates how much respect I'm showing to my opponent in my opinion is stupid and juvenile. Yes, it's true that there are players out there that blame their losses on character choices, or even other silly reasons - professional Starcraft 2 player Naniwa once infamously forfeited a match and walked out of the venue because he believed Polt, his opponent, was able to hear the crowd through the booth and noise cancelling headphones, and was able to snuff out and stop his incoming proxy attack as a result. And it's not just limited to esports, there are professional athletes that blame their losses on the ball, or the state of the playing field. When you're in a competitive environment, that's always going to happen. But those people are the minority, and I don't like being tarred with the same brush as that minority.

I get it that if you want to be a professional fighting game player, you'll choose the character that gives you the best shot at winning. And that's fine. I'll continue to main Samus in Smash 4 at tournies, not because of any kind of disrespect, but because I want to get better. My character choice is not the reason I haven't won a tournament (outside of online tourney mode anyway, which doesn't count). I can always get better, I can always improve, and that's something that will remain true regardless of my character choice.
If you are playing to win competitively, I don't believe Samus is a viable solo main. Too many bad matchups. Basically, I agree with Omni. It's great that we are pushing Samus' meta, but the MUs are super tough in some cases. If you aren't gonna pick a top tier main, you MUST have something in your pocket for bad matchups. Otherwise you aren't really playing to win.
 

White_Pointer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
295
NNID
wh1tepointer
If you are playing to win competitively, I don't believe Samus is a viable solo main. Too many bad matchups. Basically, I agree with Omni. It's great that we are pushing Samus' meta, but the MUs are super tough in some cases. If you aren't gonna pick a top tier main, you MUST have something in your pocket for bad matchups. Otherwise you aren't really playing to win.
I agree. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. The point I was trying to make, was that it is NOT somehow disrespectful to your opponent if you don't choose a high tier character.

EDIT: I myself keep a pocket Yoshi to try to cover Samus' bad matchups. But that's not really the purpose of the thread.
 
Last edited:

TheJolteon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
174
Location
The Blood in your Veins
NNID
x5000luigi
I completely agree with Omni and its sad to see so many casuals wine about how good Samus or Ganon is in the comments on that video. However he did say it only applys to competitive players. I say pick a top tier if u wanna win but don't think you'l win EVO with Samus.:4sheik:>:4samus:
 

Xygonn

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
768
Location
Seattle Area
NNID
xygonn
I agree. That wasn't the point I was trying to make though. The point I was trying to make, was that it is NOT somehow disrespectful to your opponent if you don't choose a high tier character.
Not playing your best to win is generally disrespectful. That may include choosing a bad mu but not necessarily. But ness mains keep picking ness vs. Rosa. *shrugs*
 

White_Pointer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
295
NNID
wh1tepointer
I completely agree with Omni and its sad to see so many casuals wine about how good Samus or Ganon is in the comments on that video. However he did say it only applys to competitive players. I say pick a top tier if u wanna win but don't think you'l win EVO with Samus.:4sheik:>:4samus:
Again, I agree with that. A Samus main isn't going to win Evo in her current state, that wasn't implying she could. What I'm doing is challenging the notion that you are disrespecting your opponent by choosing a character that's not considered to be high tier.
 
Last edited:

-_ellipsis_-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Messages
232
Location
St Johns, NL, Canada
NNID
HCLargesse
I don't play to win in general. I play to win with Samus. That's not disrespectful, it's the game I choose to play. I don't care if my opponent cares.
 

S4MUS

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
21
NNID
LordOfTheOcean
I wouldn't call choosing a low tier disrespectful. If your main is Samus and out of all the characters, you're most skilled with her, that is showing respect by using your best character at your disposal. Maybe she isn't the best character, however she is your best character.
 

Xygonn

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
768
Location
Seattle Area
NNID
xygonn
I wouldn't call choosing a low tier disrespectful. If your main is Samus and out of all the characters, you're most skilled with her, that is showing respect by using your best character at your disposal. Maybe she isn't the best character, however she is your best character.
If it is a decent matchup for Samus, I don't disagree. But not having a pocket for bad matchups is like entering an MMA competition as a really good boxer. Boxing might work on some opponents, and you'll get some respect for being a good boxer, but you would be better if you learned how to grapple and kick against opponents that are good at countering your boxing skills. It's a sort of sandbagging if you don't bring a full toolkit to the competition. I'm not saying anyone should give up the tool they are best with, but they should have other tools available when it isn't a good choice. The highest tier characters have no specific weaknesses or insurmountable matchups. They are just well suited to competitive play. You might not be best with the high tier because you simply aren't great at emphasizing all phases of the game. That's fine. You don't have to main that high tier. In fact, I would argue you don't have to "pick a high tier main and have a fun side character" or whatever. If you are playing to win you should have the skills with one to three characters that cover all MUs. I think it's a viable "screwball" type strategy to attempt to cultivate several low tier characters with the right MUs to have a composite MU chart that is positive. I guess based on my argument, I would even say Ness mains better cover the Rosa MU with another character or else they aren't playing to win either. Basically, it can be considered disrespectful if you are knowingly putting yourself in a losing position before the match ever starts.
 

White_Pointer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
295
NNID
wh1tepointer
Isn't that just sandbagging though? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's purposely limiting your own abilities by choosing a worse character, right?
Let me ask you a question: Do you think Nairo disrespected ESAM by choosing to play Doc against his Pikachu at MLG?

Here's the thing..."worse character" is subjective. There isn't a universally agreed on tier list for Smash 4 at the moment, and when top players like ESAM, Dabuz and ZeRo decide to make one, they get 20 billion replies telling them that they are wrong. You only need to look as far as the matchup chart project thread in this forum to see that even amongst dedicated character mains, there is disagreement about what matchups are good, bad and even.

Doc was (and still is) universally panned as being a bad character in this game, and Pikachu is considered by most as one of the best. So did Nairo disrespect ESAM?
 
Last edited:

(A)

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
17
Location
Ensenada
NNID
Gamaro93
Let me ask you a question: Do you think Nairo disrespected ESAM by choosing to play Doc against his Pikachu at MLG?

Here's the thing..."worse character" is subjective. There isn't a universally agreed on tier list for Smash 4 at the moment, and when top players like ESAM, Dabuz and ZeRo decide to make one, they get 20 billion replies telling them that they are wrong. You only need to look at far as the matchup chart project thread in this forum to see that even amongst dedicated character mains, there is disagreement about what matchups are good, bad and even.

Doc was (and still is) universally panned as being a bad character in this game, and Pikachu is considered by most as one of the best. So did Nairo disrespect ESAM?
Totally agreed
 

Xygonn

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
768
Location
Seattle Area
NNID
xygonn
Let me ask you a question: Do you think Nairo disrespected ESAM by choosing to play Doc against his Pikachu at MLG?

Here's the thing..."worse character" is subjective. There isn't a universally agreed on tier list for Smash 4 at the moment, and when top players like ESAM, Dabuz and ZeRo decide to make one, they get 20 billion replies telling them that they are wrong. You only need to look at far as the matchup chart project thread in this forum to see that even amongst dedicated character mains, there is disagreement about what matchups are good, bad and even.

Doc was (and still is) universally panned as being a bad character in this game, and Pikachu is considered by most as one of the best. So did Nairo disrespect ESAM?
I've been ripped on it before but I think doc is terribly underrated and has a 55:45 mu against pika, probably the single most overrated char.

http://smashboards.com/threads/usage-based-tier-considerations.396301/
 
Last edited:

Junji

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 9, 2015
Messages
4
Location
Ontario
I don't think it's disrespectful at all. My best characters are mid tier, and probably always will be. I'm not going to pick up a top tier just to win, I play this game to have fun. I main Olimar because I connect with him much more than the "better" characters. I definitely don't play mid tier characters just to offend other people and I don't think anyone else does. I really don't like Omni saying that because it might spread that mindset. I don't want anyone to think i play the characters i like solely to disrespect them. It's just that I'm not very good with most of the top tiers.
off topic, I disagree with most of Omni's video, everyone has a different playstyle and everyone should pick a character that their playstyle fits best with. People thought metaknight was awful because no one really spent time with him, and now he's considered one of the best mid-tier characters in the game. not to mention his amazing death combos. If everyone just went for the top tier characters tournaments would just be super boring.
 
Last edited:

Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
2,029
Location
Middletown, Ohio
NNID
sneak_diss
As long as that top tier character has a extremely high skill ceiling with tons of freedom and improvisational play, I'm down. However, there's nobody like that.
 

JAZZ_

The Armored Artist
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
569
NNID
childofgalifrey
Here is what I believe, when talking about an emotional action like respect or disrespect its extremely presumptuous to peg it down with 1 action. Each person interprets another's actions differently, and the whole notion of choosing a character being either disrespectful or respectful (at least when playing strangers online or at tournaments) is RIDICULOUS. There is only 1 way this in any way can be interpreted disrespectful (respect seems ludicrous), and that is only if the person your playing against has a history with you to where you know you can beat him with your main but you choose an even stronger character just for a quick match. BUT even this is stupid reasoning, the act of simply choosing a character can in no way be interpreted as a disrespectful act or a respectful act. (IDK how cocky or positive you or your opponent need to be to see this as respectful)
 
Top Bottom