Thought on the characters so far...

[batistabus]

I know that this version has been out for less than a year, but I'm interested in reading what people think of the roster so far. I'm not looking for a tier list, but instead something more design-focused. We all see complaints here and there, but I'm looking for something a bit more organized. A character doesn't have to be the most effective to be the best designed. Here are the categories.

Close to Perfect

These are the characters that need either very minor or no tweaks. If the game were to go gold tomorrow, only these characters would make it in. The Top 8 from Melee might fit into this category, for example.

Mostly Good

These characters have yet to set off any red flags. They seem like they're good for the most part, but only time will tell if a problem will arise. You may be able to identify a few small issues.

Problematic

These are characters that clearly need a few changes. Something about their move-set might be toxic, too rewarding with too little trade-off, or just have something that you don't think makes sense for Smash.

Under-powered/Not Viable

These are characters that just cannot compete in the long run. They may have been okay if they were added into Melee, but don't stack up with the rest of the PM roster. Perhaps they have a weakness that is just too significant to overlook.

Too Soon to Tell

Assuming every character doesn't fall under this category, characters that you don't feel have been explored as much as others would go here. If less than two top players are using this character, you might place them here. If you are torn and just cannot decide, put a character here as well.

Do-Over (THE SALTIEST OPTION)

This character is one of the worst things about this game. The problem with this character isn't just in a move or two, but rather it's just a problem with their overall character design. Please scrap and try again.

 

[batistabus]

In no particular order...

Spoiler

Close to Perfect





- did you guys find this guy hidden on the Melee disc?



- reasonable buffs





- might be worse relative to the cast, but she's dumb so it's okay

- least sure of her

- doesn't need recovery buff/tweak

- recovery makes him somewhat lacking relative to the cast, but if a few people have their recoveries slightly nerfed, this won't be an issue

Mostly Good

– Some things might be a little too good (recovery), feels great overall

– Looks good, but too soon to know for sure

– Same as Wario

- Same

- Same

- Same

- Same

- Same

- Same

– Same

– looks good but he has some weird mechanics, who knows how they’ll hold up in the long run

– Probably one of the most unique characters in the game, which makes him unpredictable, in some cases unsure if player success is because of the player, Snake, or the other player’s inexperience

– Potential problems with arrows and throws, but it’s hard to say because only top players have picked him up (Armada, Zero)

– Good strength/weakness tradeoff, but hard to say, M2K is clearly the best with him, but he still doesn’t use a lot of his new PM tech

Problematic

– I don’t think he needs two bananas, as they just devolve the pace of the match. Has a lot of multi-hit moves which requires less precision/timing overall. Jetpack should not have random trajectory. Nerf up-throw.

– Melee Zelda buffed in almost every way + dins fire silliness. Melee Zelda isn’t complete trash to begin with, so some overall nerfs would be nice. Return recovery to Melee. Get rid of Nayru’s love shenanigans. Make a major change to Din’s fire.

– Melee Link buffed in every way. Revert to Melee and buff much more selectively. Tweak projectile spam.

– Too many long-lasting multi-hit moves. Nerf back-air (which edge-guards for free). Make him more difficult to use. Not TOO bad.

– The least problematic, and very much improved from previous versions. Change his down-b to something different, possibly something like a shine (spin). Make it so he can’t just be flying around the screen constantly. Buff dash-dance and tweak a few extra moves.

Under-powered/Not Viable

- Ganondorf is sooooo fun to play, but projectiles are just too strong in this game. He gets outranged by more characters in this game as well. Change his neutral B, and give him a way to deal with projectiles. Revert some things to Melee to compensate if necessary.

Too Soon to Tell

– Very technical, and requires a lot of interdisciplinary game knowledge to fully understand. Few top players have given him a shot. Hopefully Amsa will develop him more.

– People assume he sucks because Axe doesn’t do extremely well, but I don’t think he can just be played like Melee + QAQ. Needs more development of his new technology.

– Very cool but weird movement. I don’t like his side-b. His water attacks are good. One of the most underplayed characters.

– Very strange and not frequently played. Needs much more play time. Possibly make Pikmin less random.

– Just generally underplayed.

- same.

– Needs some engine fixes to be more like Melee. Needs more players to see how the buffs affect his placement.

– Melee stuff + Brawl stuff might be too much. No infinites = awesome. No top Melee ICs will play these guys in PM.

– Only McBad plays him. PK moves might have been buffed a little too much. I get the most salty fighting this guy.

– Has some cool stuff that makes him like a spacie, but has a lot of weird stuff as well. Some things seem potentially abuse able. Boarders on “Mostly Good”

Do-Over

None.

 

[Saito]

I don't want to do this all but I do want to talk about Link.

Other than his Boomerang, he is fine as is.

 

[Hulter]

Fox and Jigglypuff: the pinnacle of character design.

I'm done. I quit smash.

 

[batistabus]

I'm done. I quit smash.

Not really sure how you made it this long.

Anyway, I am focusing on design, but not design in a vacuum.

 

[Y-L]

This belongs in tier list speculation..

 

[batistabus]

This belongs in tier list speculation..

No it doesn't. I don't find tier list discussion to be particularly useful or interesting in PM since everyone is pretty close and saying one is better than another is totally subjective. Most importantly, it's way too soon to make a judgement that nuanced. If I were forced to make a tier list for PM at this point, it wouldn't look like this at all.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Fine as is: Melee Top Tiers

Problematic: Buffed Characters who have Results.

Ridiculous.

 

[batistabus]

Fine as is: Melee Top Tiers

Problematic: Buffed Characters who have Results.

Ridiculous.

Apex 2014 Top 8 placing players' characters used
Pit, Fox, Mewtwo, Marth, Falco, Snake, Dedede, Roy, Ike, ROB

My problematic characters
Diddy, Zelda, Link, Ivy, Sonic

Right...

 

[Y-L]

No it doesn't. I don't find tier list discussion to be particularly useful or interesting in PM since everyone is pretty close and saying one is better than another is totally subjective. Most importantly, it's way too soon to make a judgement that nuanced. If I were forced to make a tier list for PM at this point, it wouldn't look like this at all.

lol this whole thread is saying one character is better than another or one character is worse than another. This thread is completely subjective and is based off of what you think is broken and is for the most part baseless. Belongs in tier list speculation.

 

[batistabus]

lol this whole thread is saying one character is better than another or one character is worse than another. This thread is completely subjective. Belongs in tier list speculation.

Viability is a factor in this, but it's not the main point. I don't think anyone is realistically expecting an eventual tier list where every single character is A or S tier. What I'd like to see out of this thread is perspective of where characters are in their development cycles.

 

[Y-L]

Viability is a factor in this, but it's not the main point. I don't think anyone is realistically expecting an eventual tier list where every single character is A or S tier. What I'd like to see out of this thread is perspective of where characters are in their development cycles.

If you're suggesting in this thread that characters need to be changed then you're effectively preventing them from being developed and if you're suggesting nothing should be done then this thread is pointless. The reason why you think the melee cast is perfect is because their metagames are already developed, while the rest of the cast has not yet developed in PM.

 

[batistabus]

If you're suggesting in this thread that characters need to be changed then you're effectively preventing them from being developed

If only I had that much power. Besides, does that mean these things cannot be discussed? Why don't you tell that to...everyone who has ever speculated here.

and if you're suggesting nothing should be done then this thread is pointless.

Have you ever heard of a discussion? Analyzing? Speculation? What do you think forums are for?

The reason why you think the melee cast is perfect is because their metagames are already developed

Um...duh. Project M is supposed to be the sequel to Melee that Brawl never was, and as the characters were perfectly ported from Melee, then they're obviously going to be the closest to completed. Unless you think Melee is trash and all the characters are broken and need overhauls, I'm not sure why you're trying to argue this. That doesn't mean these guys are untouchable (I'm not against tweaks to Fox/Falco/etc. such as the ones that have already been made), but considering the meta-game is quite literally based around these characters, it should go without saying that they're the closest to perfect. We already know what these characters are capable of, and chances are they're not going to be changed significantly.

while the rest of the cast has not yet developed in PM.

I have the majority of PM newcomers on either "Close to Perfect" or "Mostly Good". I acknowledge the lack of development in their meta-games multiple times in this thread.

Now, unless you're actually going to make your own list, maybe you should just stop posting here.

 

[Y-L]

If only I had that much power. Besides, does that mean these things cannot be discussed? Why don't you tell that to...everyone who has ever speculated here.


Have you ever heard of a discussion? Analyzing? Speculation? What do you think forums are for?


Um...duh. Project M is supposed to be the sequel to Melee that Brawl never was, and as the characters were perfectly ported from Melee, then they're obviously going to be the closest to completed. Unless you think Melee is trash and all the characters are broken and need overhauls, I'm not sure why you're trying to argue this. That doesn't mean these guys are untouchable (I'm not against tweaks to Fox/Falco/etc. such as the ones that have already been made), but considering the meta-game is quite literally based around these characters, it should go without saying that they're the closest to perfect. We already know what these characters are capable of, and chances are they're not going to be changed significantly.


I have the majority of PM newcomers on either "Close to Perfect" or "Mostly Good". I acknowledge the lack of development in their meta-games multiple times in this thread.

Now, unless you're actually going to make your own list, maybe you should just stop posting here.

Sure you're allowed to speculate, it just belongs in the tier list speculation thread.

 

[batistabus]

Sure you're allowed to speculate, it just belongs in the tier list speculation thread.

I'm not talking about tier lists. This is not a tier list. I put characters in categories that are not solely dependent on viability, and I do not rank them within those categories. Also, you're not a mod so stop acting like one.

I'm not going to respond to you anymore.

 

[Y-L]

I'm not talking about tier lists. This is not a tier list. I put characters in categories that are not solely dependent on viability, and I do not rank them within those categories. Also, you're not a mod so stop acting like one.

I'm not going to respond to you anymore.

"close to perfect/mostly good"
character is good

"problematic/underpowered not viable"
character is bad
plz buff

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I mean, it's hard to take this thread seriously when you have the Melee top 8 in 'close to perfect'.

If nothing else, Jigglypuff is ****ing atrocious.

 

[batistabus]

I mean, it's hard to take this thread seriously when you have the Melee top 8 in 'close to perfect'.

If nothing else, Jigglypuff is ****ing atrocious.

*sigh*

Do you realistically believe that Jigglypuff will be re-hauled? Do you think she'll be buffed otherwise? If the answer is no, then that puts her in the "close to perfect" category.

I consider myself a PM player over a Melee player, but you guys are too damn salty about Melee top tiers.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

'Unlikely to be changed' =/= 'well designed'

Salty? I'm not salty about a terrible character that desperately needs buffs or an actual way to compete in a completely new metagame.

How about you not dismiss others opinions out of hand with sighs and generalizations, and maybe you'll have a thread that goes somewhere.

 

[batistabus]

'Unlikely to be changed' =/= 'well designed'

Salty? I'm not salty about a terrible character that desperately needs buffs or an actual way to compete in a completely new metagame.

How about you not dismiss others opinions out of hand with sighs and generalizations, and maybe you'll have a thread that goes somewhere.

This is how I describe that category.

"These are the characters that need either very minor or no tweaks. If the game were to go gold tomorrow, only these characters would make it in."

She is not terrible as-is. She is less effective against the rest of the cast, but that doesn't mean she's not viable or can't compete. And honestly, I don't think Puff has a terrible design. I think rest is really cool, and has a really fair trade-off. The only ridiculous thing about her is how easily she can edge-guard some characters, which you've already established isn't as much of an issue in this game. Just because Hungrybox doesn't want to play her in this game, it doesn't automatically mean that she is terrible.

And I'm really asking you. Do you think she will be changed? Buffed?

 

[TimeSmash]

Just a suggestion, wouldn't you rather break this down character by character thus far to get people talking? That way, conversation wouldn't be all over the place and you could really get the feedback you're looking for. =)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

This is how I describe that category.

"These are the characters that need either very minor or no tweaks. If the game were to go gold tomorrow, only these characters would make it in."

She is not terrible as-is. She is less effective against the rest of the cast, but that doesn't mean she's not viable or can't compete. And honestly, I don't think Puff has a terrible design. I think rest is really cool, and has a really fair trade-off. The only ridiculous thing about her is how easily she can edge-guard some characters, which you've already established isn't as much of an issue in this game. Just because Hungrybox doesn't want to play her in this game, it doesn't automatically mean that she is terrible.

And I'm really asking you. Do you think she will be changed? Buffed?

Strong Bad has stated that the PMBR will likely not be making changes to the Melee top 8.

So no, I don't think so.

She is pretty terrible as is. Much of the casts has disjoints, projectiles, or otherwise good reach or range to keep Jigglypuff out and her weave/drift/aerial mobility and bair no longer cut the mustard when it comes to controlling space. Rest is harder to land on a lot of the cast, especially with so many more viable floaties and her low survivability really holds her back. She was good in a metagame of 8 characters who had linear recoveries, dominated by two fast-fallers and smaller pool of viable stages where she could exercise more control over the match. PM's expansion in all competitive aspects has left Jigglypuff behind, and she's undoubtedly in the bottom 5 of the cast.

Her design is pretty bad as well. Her mobility is severely lacking in a game where positioning means everything and her Wall of Pain is meaningless since she lacks reliable ways to win neutral or force opponents off-stage. Her playstyle is far too heavily slanted towards good reads and she lacks truly safe options, being punished disproportionately harshly for guessing wrong due to her low survivability. If you asked me to state examples of PM characters (which you are) she would not be among them.

 

[batistabus]

PM's expansion in all competitive aspects has left Jigglypuff behind, and she's undoubtedly in the bottom 5 of the cast.

Bottom 5 doesn't have to mean unviable in PM. Either way, you're allowed to have that opinion. So why don't you just make your own list instead of complaining about mine? Feel free to put Puff in the "Do-Over" category for all I care. xD

 

[TimeSmash]

Also, hasn't the PMBR stated that modifying Din's Fire would be a "PR nightmare" or something of the sort?

I'll admit it doesn't need as much knockback, but still

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Bottom 5 doesn't have to mean unviable in PM. Either way, you're allowed to have that opinion. So why don't you just make your own list instead of complaining about mine? Feel free to put Puff in the "Do-Over" category for all I care. xD

I was going to, but I thought lists were up for debate as well. Threads where people just state their opinion and move on are boring and don't last long either. Just check all of the "Who do you main?" "Who is your favorite character to watch?" etc. threads.

 

[batistabus]

I was going to, but I thought lists were up for debate as well. Threads where people just state their opinion and move on are boring and don't last long either. Just check all of the "Who do you main?" "Who is your favorite character to watch?" etc. threads.

Yes, you are welcome to do that, but I am interested in seeing your list as well.

Also, hasn't the PMBR stated that modifying Din's Fire would be a "PR nightmare" or something of the sort?

I'll admit it doesn't need as much knockback, but still

The problem I see with Din's Fire isn't the knock-back. I feel like the move's intended use was to set up into combos, which can be really cool. The part where the move can be abused in a way that I don't think is good for the game is when it's used to camp excessively.

 

[TimeSmash]

Yes, you are welcome to do that, but I am interested in seeing your list as well.


The problem I see with Din's Fire isn't the knock-back. I feel like the move's intended use was to set up into combos, which can be really cool. The part where the move can be abused in a way that I don't think is good for the game is when it's used to camp excessively.

By all means please post something in the Zelda boards. We have a joke topic about nerfing Zelda, but I will admit some things do need to be changed. A lot of us will give you reasons in support of her, but I'm sure some people think she is flawed as well

 

[batistabus]

By all means please post something in the Zelda boards. We have a joke topic about nerfing Zelda, but I will admit some things do need to be changed. A lot of us will give you reasons in support of her, but I'm sure some people think she is flawed as well

I've tried a few times, but most people there seem pretty attached to her. I think Zelda could be really freaking cool, but in her current form, I think there's just too much room for abuse.

 

[Yurya]

PM's fatal flaw is that is only a modification of a game, not its own game and is designed with mostly direct inspiration from an already well established game. Because of that Spacies and Puff are destined to remain the same even though their design has flaws. Other characters must adopt some of the same flaws in order to be competitive, so there will be imperfect designs that must remain else the game sees a much longer intensive remodel.

 

[Zerudahime]

Hmm...well...this is interesting.

 

[standardtoaster]

Locked on request.