Things I Like - The Mafia Game - Game Over

[#HBC | Kary]

Synchronicity your #139 is all Xivii, correct?

How caught up are you?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

A wolf in sheep's clothing baas louder than the rest:
https://smashboards.com/threads/seven-deadly-sins-mafia-mini-game-over.385341/post-18334506
https://smashboards.com/threads/completely-vanilla-mafia-game-over.506119/post-24040587

The irony is I'm also sussed out about somi but for the opposite reason. What do you think of their posts since then?

Laser's chaco case contains a very common sumhunting mistake where people use a meta read that essentially boils down to "I saw this guys town play in a game and he's playing different here so he must be scum" when in actuality it's not that uncommon for people to play different games as town which is why meta reads shouldn't be used unless you've seen the guy play as both alignments. Laser's post has enough original intent that I think it's more misguided than scummy but I don't like FF and especially wam hopping onto/pushing chaco afterwards it feels opportunistic. If I'm wrong about gorf/fonti's slot then wam looks really bad

#25 contains a quintessential scum-ping.

Very curious as to what you mean by this

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Yes it is weird that DH was piggybacking on my Pythag push.
I don't know why you decided to lay this out in the thread, postponing any thoughts until after a flip, rather than trying to follow it up at the time.
And I find it hard to believe you really think this might be a coordinated plan to push Pythag of all people. I can't help it if mafia want to buddy me, all I can do is be aware of it and try and figure out who is really on the same wavelength as me.

Subtle shade noted

What do you think of Laser's case on chaco?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Yo Pythag

Pythag how does the gorf quote you brought up change the situation? Does it change anything or do you still view gorf and I as TvT?

Did this ever end up making a difference?

 

[Pythag]

Yo Pythag



Did this ever end up making a difference?

It’s moved me from townie gorf into more null territory. I’ve got more a quizzical eye in his direction.

It’s just making me re-evaluate.

 

[Sabrar]

I am baffled that noone has apparently cared to review LaserGuy's complete case. With the same evaluation criteria that he used for Chaco's content in this game he could have produced the following reads for the second game he quoted:

Look man, I know I’m warm and cuddly.

So what’s mercuris experience? Vet or newer? I would tag them to ask but I can’t figure out how they spelled it.

Fluff

Innocent child variant?

but yeah it definitely looks like watered down roles like someone said before.

Fluff

I’m sure I can, so I’m not gonna ask clarification on that. Self-doubting miller.

Fluff

Probably two scum here, DP. 3 would be to much and would be LyLo D2 considering an ML D1

Fluff

Did you gain a restriction, or just oppositely color coordinating your names?

Fluff

He used red for town indication and yellow as null/scum it seemed

Fluff

None of these advance the game state or express reads. The only reason for labelling them as 'focusing on game mechanics' and finding them townie because of that is that it can fit into LG's narrative. As expressed multiple times scum loves to talk about game mechanics because it's a safe topic to generate content in.

PS: I hate hate hate that this forum does not allow nested quotes.

 

[somitomi]

Some what are your thoughts on these wagons? Is there a crazier one of the two?

I noticed this while reading back, was this @me?

Very curious as to what you mean by this

I have a guess, at least I was pinged a little by that post, but I'm not going to jump the gun.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I noticed this while reading back, was this @me?

Yeah that was, I feel like the games progressed since then so I didn't really care much about hounding you for an answer.

I have a guess, at least I was pinged a little by that post, but I'm not going to jump the gun.

I have a guess too but I still want to hear it from the man himself.

 

[Chaco]

I am baffled that noone has apparently cared to review LaserGuy's complete case. With the same evaluation criteria that he used for Chaco's content in this game he could have produced the following reads for the second game he quoted:


Fluff


Fluff


Fluff


Fluff


Fluff


Fluff

None of these advance the game state or express reads. The only reason for labelling them as 'focusing on game mechanics' and finding them townie because of that is that it can fit into LG's narrative. As expressed multiple times scum loves to talk about game mechanics because it's a safe topic to generate content in.

PS: I hate hate hate that this forum does not allow nested quotes.

That’s because the whole case is in bad faith. I’m not sure whether to scum read him over it or not. I’m seemingly more interested in Wam’s blind follow of everyone’s reads, and the acceptance of this case when it has absolutely no bearing. The only difference in my play here, and that is I stated prior, is I was gonna sit back and evaluate more instead of interjecting into everything. I refrained from DH v Gorf, Sabrar v FF, etc. Skewed meta cases are bad.

 

[Chaco]

The immediate backpedaling from Laser is concerning. My guess is he was expecting me to blow up and make myself appear more scummy? Idk. It’s not enough to go off of to sort him one way or the other, I definitely need to see more. It would also seem to me that he thinks I would be an easier target to ML than some of the other players and gain favor and cling to “well he was playing differently” as a write off as such. Once again, not enough info to sort him though.

You don’t make a case trying to exploit something early D1 with no backing if you don’t have an agenda, furthermore with no follow up. Not a single scum tell highlighted, completely and totally cold meta. If it was for pressure I would imagine it presented differently. Either he’s digging for anything and everything, or he’s trying to force a ML. Like I said though, the parrot backing of Wam not being addressed by him is very concerning. Not sure that fits town Laser, I expect a little more depth than that. It very similarly reminds me of ScumLaser in Midnight trying to make stuff stick, although a great difference in play style here. More active and responsive as opposed to more lurking and wall based play there. Scum play shift or misguided town.

What do you think Sabrar ?

 

[LaserGuy]

Town:

Dark Horse - Town. Good questioning, seems to be analyzing well, checking all of the angles.

Frozen - Town lean. Seems much more relaxed this game. Reaction to Sabrar's tunnel feels very natural.

Gorfonti - Scum lean. Abrasive and on edge. The reads in #156 seem crazy to me and I wish there was some explanation attached to them so I could understand where they were coming from.

BoomFrog - Town Lean. Seems to be mostly flitting around on the sidelines, but his reads in #116 seem legitimate.

Kary - Nullscum. Cautious, non-commital.

Malakandra - Town Lean. Seems lost and struggling to meaningfully contribute. Was much more focused as mafia.

pythag - Nullscum. Don't really have any strong feelings on this slot. Case on Frozen in #131 is extremely dubious though.

Chaco - Scum lean. See #172

Sabrar - Town. Reasonably confident that this is Town Sabrar.

somitomi - NullTown. Tonally very different from recent scum game.

Synchronicity - NullTown. Seems to be dancing to their own music.

wam - Nullscum. Minimal contributions so far. wam often reads as scummy D1 so I'm not ready to commit to a stronger read on him without more information.


Town
LaserGuy
Dark Horse
Sabrar

BoomFrog
Frozen
Malakandra

Synchronicity
somitomi
---Null line--
Kary
pythag
wam

Gorf
Chaco
Scum

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I feel I'm in the wrong time zone for this game!

For Kary, chaco and malak are your boom votes serious?

Not very, though that should be obvious. Is Boom townie to you?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

while I definitely didn’t understand all of it, I think the post has a town feel and purpose.

I could elaborate more in maybe 2 hours

I can give you town feel, maybe. What's the town purpose though?

 

[Sabrar]

Very curious as to what you mean by this

"I'm okay with that slot but I want to keep an eye on them" is a classic phrase as old as time used by scum who know they don't have anything concrete to attack the slot right now but want to keep their options open.

What do you think Sabrar ?

More often than not I misread LG. Last example is from Oasis, I call out his BS case however I still can't believe it's him later. I think LG's case can come from town without any particular agenda as he's usually very confident in his reads even if wrong.

Btw why do you think he backpedaled? Also

It would also seem to me that he thinks I would be an easier target to ML than some of the other players and gain favor and cling to “well he was playing differently” as a write off as such.

This only makes sense if you think LG is scum. But then why do you state that you can't sort him?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

"I'm okay with that slot but I want to keep an eye on them" is a classic phrase as old as time used by scum who know they don't have anything concrete to attack the slot right now but want to keep their options open.

Yeah that's what I figured

I have a plausible explanation for how that can come from town in this specific context but I'm leaving that homework for kary herself

 

[#HBC | Kary]

TOWN
Mala
Laser
Frozen
-----
Dark Horse
Pythag
Somi
BoomFrog
------
Sabrar
Synchro
-----
Chaco
Gorf (fonti)
Wam
SCUM

 

[LaserGuy]

For the game mass as well, check the date. I can also produce the one from Monday where I say I’m traveling back 6 hours, although it took me 7. More than happy to oblige since this is what it takes. Read the below snippet. Let’s paraphrase “I don’t want to spam replies anymore without thinking about them, I want to have time to collect my thoughts and think. But I’m afraid to do that because I’ll get read differently for it.”

I haven't seen any evidence that this is what you were trying to do. Where are these longer, more thoughtful posts? Point me to them.

In context, this makes even less sense because the quoted message is in a discussion about a game I am thinking about running sometime in the future where everyone would be restricted in the number of posts that they would be able to make. It's not about this game, and there is nothing in the phrasing of the Discord quote to indicate that you are intending to do anything differently at all. You would never read "I've always wanted to go to the United States, but I'm worried about COVID" to mean "I'm going to the United States at the next available opportunity".

Unvote
before I forget. I see the meta here is to vote someone pretty much all the time, but I'm used to a different mode of operation and I'm gonna need a minute to decide where it should go next.

This is your third game on the site. Why do you feel the need to spell this out?

fontisian : What are your thoughts on Chaco this game?

Wam : Would you be able to make an ordered list? You don't need to give reasons at this point if you don't have time to do it in full.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

i think i'm caught up on everything. this game has been pretty confusing given its just 7 pages, i know I asked for more, but please.

Sabrar why is Chaco town to you?

 

[Pythag]

I can give you town feel, maybe. What's the town purpose though?

The post seemed very thoughtful The purpose would be at the very least to show where Besvii’s head is at, where they are coming from and how they will be interpreting things.
It seems There also is purpose in not just give a super blanket reads list. Having to read slower and engage with the post differently looks like it’s trying to inspire thought, and I see that as pro town

Where that gambit falls on its face is when I don’t know all the references, but I think even in my lack of knowledge I felt like I had some decent idea of what they thought of, each player they mentioned.


Scum!xivii goes for legitimate town defenses even if improbable
Scum!Bessie last time wouldn’t even argue the points levied against her, but answered questions no one was asking.

can they do something new?
of course, but without flips I don’t have any reference.

I don’t see either of those muddying tactics coming up yet, so I view that slot as more town

 

[Sabrar]

Sabrar why is Chaco town to you?

He's not specifically town for me but I'm taking his side vs LG whose case is nonsense.

 

[Malakandra]

You fabricating a case and already backpedaling is telling enough.

Where do you see the backpedaling? The post above yours appears to be LG doubling down not walking his accusation back.

Lasers analysis on chaco is a good oeice of work. So in going to sheep and put chaco as 2nd scummiest after gorf.

Having never played with chaco dont have a meta guide but the posts today make chaco look like caught guilty scum.

What specifically did you like/agree with on Lasers original case, what makes you think Chaco looks caught, and what have you thought of the developments with Laser and Chaco arguing so far?

TOWN
Mala
Laser
Frozen

Interested about all three of these, but especially why I am so high.

 

[Malakandra]

Overall I'm most sus of the people putting me high already, and some of the more blatant case sheeping. I don't think I'm playing like my town game that much, and besides that I doubt these people know me enough to throw me at tops of lists and the like this early when most of my content has just been asking questions. FF is also kinda up there because I don't like their pre flip association thing and the reasoning behind it, just seemed off to me to try to make that connection this early. Didn't really like this post. Felt like taking an excuse to drop a vote without having to go through and agree with the case super hard. FF has def been playing different than what I saw in Midnight, but it makes sense why since that didn't work out great for them. So I guess Bird + Fish = Dog or whatever.

Vote: Frozen Flame

 

[Malakandra]

Maybe I'm being too paranoid about all the people trusting me, I just feel like I'm being setup for going to endgame and then people go "ahh Mala's tricking us again gosh darn it lets git rid of him that slimy scum boi." and I'd rather avoid that.

 

[BoomFrog]

We ride.

Vote: Frozen Flame

 

[BoomFrog]

#25 contains a quintessential scum-ping.

Funny, I thought you were pointing out Chaco 's vacuous question. "Will it be hard to read Synchronicity", like obviously yes, why even ask that softball question?

Also, if you go to the trouble of finding a post number isn't it equally easy to link the post or quote it? That would help readability a lot. Is there some easy way to jump to a post number that I am missing? I just guess the page then scroll to it.

No, I just haven't seen anything that's made me want to unvote, and nothing that's made me really want to vote someone else.

Did this mean that you did feel I was a bit scummy? What's your read of me so far?

 

[BoomFrog]

What are you seeing that points to scum!Frozen (again)?

Why is Chaco so high up the list?

Most of the rest of these look very reasonable to me.

I don't like Frozen's linking of Kary and DH, it doesn't even make sense. It's not a plausible scenario that they would really be coordinating like that so tightly early D1. And I don't like the backpedal on Somi. It seems like he's going out of his way to make sure he can have a scum read on anyone he needs to. I'm kinda shocked fontisian doesn't feel FF is slimy again.

I like Chaco's interaction with me, it felt townie. It feels like he really thinks he can town read me, which makes sense when he correctly town read me last game. And when called out on it and rationally considering it he realizes it's a bit fool hardy since he's never seen me play scum. But his instinct still tells him he can read me and he trusts his instincts.

 

[Sabrar]

Funny, I thought you were pointing out Chaco 's vacuous question. "Will it be hard to read Synchronicity", like obviously yes, why even ask that softball question?

If I wanted to point that out I would have referred to #22 instead. Also I was voting Kary why would you think that I referred to Chaco's post as the ping?

Also, if you go to the trouble of finding a post number isn't it equally easy to link the post or quote it? That would help readability a lot.

I'm lazy and it takes about 15 more seconds to do that. But I'll try to keep that in mind.

 

[Malakandra]

Did this mean that you did feel I was a bit scummy? What's your read of me so far?

No sorry, It just meant I read you as null, so I didn't really feel like unvoting as I was still working on another target. I'd say rn you're null town. The FF vote tracks back to your readlist and the double vote there which I took as wanting to vote for either one of those that became more of a wagon. We disagree on Pythag, he's also nulltown for me since he's playing like he was in sumting and nothing has pinged me otherwise so far.

 

[Chaco]

Laser back pedals when I rebut him and he says the “well” and “if” statements of if you’re doing that it would be okay. It’s open ended. He doubles down on his nonsense but leaves room for escape. Arguing semantics to support his case. It’s quite clearly open ended now where he can come off of it if it doesn’t go in his favor. Watch progression on him closely.

Sabrar Just vocalizing possibilities of why he could be doing what he’s doing. I haven’t seen enough to sort one way or the other. All I know is that he’s in a gross tunnel and refusing to come out. My play is only differentiated by what I highlighted.

BoomFrog You’re correct. I feel I don’t have to see your scum in order to be able to sort your town play. Motive and push speaks for itself.

 

[Chaco]

I haven't seen any evidence that this is what you were trying to do. Where are these longer, more thoughtful posts? Point me to them.

In context, this makes even less sense because the quoted message is in a discussion about a game I am thinking about running sometime in the future where everyone would be restricted in the number of posts that they would be able to make. It's not about this game, and there is nothing in the phrasing of the Discord quote to indicate that you are intending to do anything differently at all. You would never read "I've always wanted to go to the United States, but I'm worried about COVID" to mean "I'm going to the United States at the next available opportunity.”

You’re beating a dead horse, Laser. Did I not say that I was out of town and then came back to a ton of work so I haven’t really been able to sink in? Or was that taken as something else as well? I’m having to come back in and respond to a completely terrible case that you’re driving home like it’s gold. Give me time, how about that? Just cause I’m always high activity doesn’t mean I necessarily have time to sit down and comb through a game. I’ve posted numerous times I stay read up so I can respond to what’s going on, in the past two games and outside of it.

What made you think this was the approach for you to take? Why is it any different from what Sabrar pointed out which is nearly identical? How do you think you progress from here when you realize by one avenue or another that I’m town? Either you’re tunneling terribly as town, or you’re playing a move as scum that’s gonna end up with your Lynch. That’s what I’m trying to figure out. There’s two clear motives. I really wanna think you’re not gonna drive this home as scum, but then again it wouldn’t be expected of you. Regardless, you’re wasting your time and mine. Your case has zero merit, and nothing to build from. If you’re expecting me to give you something else to bite into, you’re wrong. The horse has been beaten, let it rest.

 

[Chaco]

#HBC | Kary Why is Laser so high on your town list?

 

[somitomi]

Yeah that's what I figured

Now there's three of us.
To be honest I almost definitely said something like that about Bessie as town before, so it's not something I'd put a lot of stock in.

This is your third game on the site. Why do you feel the need to spell this out?

Rather generous of you to count less than a day phase in Midnight Ops as a whole game, but either way this is my first game with about a third of the players here. I thought it'd be prudent to be upfront about this considering there's been some talk about different voting styles already.

He's not specifically town for me but I'm taking his side vs LG whose case is nonsense.

Why do you need to take a side? I also think LaserGuy is majorly misrepresenting a lot of Chaco's posts, dismissing many of them as fluff and I'm even more suspicious of wam & Frozen for jumping so eagerly on the wagon. But at the same time I don't like some of Chaco's posts since the case was presented, the aggressive tone is somehow off. Puts me in mind of a chainsaw defense except Chaco's defending himself. Overall, this interaction just made me suspicious of pretty much everyone involved, which is no small feat.

 

[Malakandra]

Overall, this interaction just made me suspicious of pretty much everyone involved, which is no small feat

Mindmeld

 

[Sabrar]

Why do you need to take a side?

Why keep my opinion to myself? That's not very progressive. Plus without pointing out the falseness of the case wam's sheeping would be much less pronounced..

 

[Malakandra]

 

[BoomFrog]

I the only one who finds these weird.

How did you manage to quote gorfs read list but attribute it to syncronicity?

 

[BoomFrog]

Overall, this interaction just made me suspicious of pretty much everyone involved, which is no small feat.

Mindmeld

Disagree with you both. Chaco's frustration at being called out on a different play style is sincere. He really feels betrayed by LaserGuy attacking him for what he thought LG should best understand out of anyone. I'm not 100% Chaco is town, but I'm 100% that he really feels LG's case is unfair.

LG this is fairly null or slightly town. Scum-LG does love to make real cases against townies and gets himself worked up into the right mindset. But I think he'd wait until later in the day to make his attack more strategicly timed.

 

[fontisian]

LaserGuy

Leaning towards voting Chaco. Currently around the 60 post mark, will talk more about him once I've caught up and have taken some time to process. Glanced at your case. I'm thinking his early posts, specifically:

See @#HBC | FrozeηFlame, already telling of Mala who’s a new player and feels absolutely zero pressure. Town indicative of them.

Cause it’s more pertinent for me to sort Boom quicker. I have a good grasp of BoomFrog, sans ambiguous play at end of Kary’s game, and feel that’s a quick route to a town clear for me/or scum catch from higher pressure entrance. Mala will be easier to read under pressure basically, two wagons diverge and gotta pick one.

Read more like things he feels like he /should/ be doing than things he's doing to solve the game, if that makes sense. Like, "people will expect me to get a read on Boom, so I'll vote him and talk about it" (even though the vote itself wasn't really any pressure). This also speaks well of Mala if Chaco is scum, since this reads more like a tmi interaction (people will realize Mala is town soon, so I should get ahead of the curve and call him town here). This conflicts heavily with how well Mala played in Midnight Ops, though admittedly I may be more focused on how well Mala fooled me and forgetting exactly how Chaco read him.

I don't think you calling Mala town shortly after this is a point against you in the same way, because you have the pov of being his scummate, and had a better look at how and why Mala played the way he did as scum, so it makes sense for you to both be focused on him and be more confident in your read. Chaco doesn't have that going for him, and came pretty close to losing to Mala, iirc.

I am optimistically hopeful this is the game we rolled town together, and if you stick with your Mala read, it will probably be something I end up sheeping so I don't paranoia yeet him.

This is way long than I intended it to be, lol. I'm back to catching up, will be around for the next 10 ish hours if people have questions. BoomFrog , I see your ping and will get to it when I get to it.

 

[fontisian]

Disagree with you both. Chaco's frustration at being called out on a different play style is sincere. He really feels betrayed by LaserGuy attacking him for what he thought LG should best understand out of anyone. I'm not 100% Chaco is town, but I'm 100% that he really feels LG's case is unfair.

LG this is fairly null or slightly town. Scum-LG does love to make real cases against townies and gets himself worked up into the right mindset. But I think he'd wait until later in the day to make his attack more strategicly timed.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the concept of "caught for the wrong reasons." It's the idea that scum tend get mad when they accused but feel the case itself isn't correct (Frozen in Midnight Ops is a good example) compared to the town reaction of just genuinely not getting why they're being pushed. Could you maybe assess what reaction Chaco is having here?

 

[giraffelasergun]

Filler post for new page