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The world of comprehension. Understanding Ike.

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MattTheGameFreak

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I am a Roy user, forty plus hours I have played Roy. Enough to know him like no other in theory, I'm still learning though. Its amazing and hence, you could apply that to any character. Roy like Ike or any other takes a great deal of time to truly master to the extent of immortality. People say Roy is cheap in the sense of his counter, I disagree as I rarely, ever use counter. Some others state the fact that he can attack two to three times before you even land, if you land, as cheap. However, they shouldn't have got themselves in that situation, anyway. Nonetheless, I do not believe Ike to be any different. Yes, Ike is slower in many aspects but if you read into the close-range speciality class from Melee, they are best at grabbing first after dodging followed by attacking. While I do not necessarily follow this practice unless needed against a character such as Marth, it essentially is the true path for Ike.

In the videos that have been posted, Ike has been stricken only into FFAs or singles competion and while both are great options. I've taken notice to people's inability to adapt to slow and strong characters in two minutes. Two minutes in which each person got to play per session. Mario Kart and Smash Bros., either of them for example have their heavyweights and yet, we do not often see newcomers playing as heavyweights to any accelerated degree when first playing. Lighter characters are much easier to use. Ike acts like a heavyweight in movement and attack power. Hence, I would place him as a close-range specialist heavyweight. In which brings to mind, people from what I've seen in my six years with Melee, they don't seem to be best without any sort of range attacks. Hence, that also hurt some people.

You may ask though, what of Bowser? People were playing him just fine. Bowser was in Super Smash Bros. Melee, and he is extremely similar to what he is in Brawl. Except for a new throw and his final smash, of course. Other than that, Bowser is a carbon copy of his Melee form. Therefore, I do not believe people had much trouble with him.

Also, Brawl has new rules and new characters with new variations of attacks, levels, and items in which may have offset most veterans from the very instant of play tied in with the fact that no Gamecube controller was present in which has become the default Smash Bros. controller. The Brawl demo as we all know, threw people from their comfort of the Gamecube controller to an alien controller in Brawl.

Ike should be a great character with practice. When a person plays as a new character at first, I'm going to bet that they are not best as they do not know the character. Once you know the character, you can truly judge each situation. Ike may possibly be one of the hardest characters to truly master from the looks of it. Besdies, I do not believe the Smash Bros. team put Ike in as an unbalanced character, he is balanced as he has a tradeoff as we know. You must also take into account that maybe they know Ike better and hence, do not see him as a flawed character. After all, he did appear in the demo when other confirmed characters did not.
 

Cless

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Who says Roy is cheap because of his counter? What people do you play? At least read Gimpy's report before posting opinions about how Ike played in the demo.
 

fire_wulf

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Here Here.... I believe you have my thoughts exactly. I am planning on doing exactly as you say. Practice..Practice..Practice.. Thats all you can do. We can't know exactly how Ike will be.. There has to be a balance for him. The creators do know something that can not figure out from watching videos or playing for two minutes. Personally.. the gamecube controller is the only way to go.. but i may end up trying the nunchuck + wii-mote combo. Who knows... people might like that.

Either way i guess i will have to practice... since my main "rival" is going to man Sonic, that speed demon.
Wish me luck
 

MattTheGameFreak

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Cless, I've read about everything and I've seen about everything there is on Ike for Smash Bros.
 

Cless

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Then you should know that, as of now, Ike has a hidden startup lag for his moves. It makes him far too slow to do anything. Even if that was fixed, the moves in his videos take too long to do. He can get grabbed before and after the moves.

Also, Bowser is not a carbon copy. He moves much faster now compared to other characters than before.

I'm not saying that I'm not going to use Ike, but I'm going to recognize that he is not that good right now. He could very easily change from E for All to release.
 

fire_wulf

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Lets hope they change him a little before release date. I mean they did delay the game on us.. They may as well make one of the hardest characters to play a little more balanced that what we have seen.
 

handsockpuppet

Smash Lord
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who says Roy's counter and the fact that he can do three aerials is cheap. his counter has max lag and can punish him, and his aerials suck. not to mention most characters can do three aerials in the air. How can a character so awful be considered cheap?
 

fire_wulf

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Cheap Roy was not... It took a lot of practice and timing to get Roy under a great degree of control. I have a strong feeling the Ike will be no different. And I also realize this fact and am willing to put the time in.

And i feel sorry for those that couldn't do two to three aerials in a jump... just tell those people they need to practice.
 

Cless

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None of Roy's aerials are killings moves and I don't even think they have good priority. Ike though, nearly all of his moves are killing moves, and he can't combo. At least Roy could combo.
 

handsockpuppet

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Ike would be good in team matches.
we already have a thread about that.

None of Roy's aerials are killings moves and I don't even think they have good priority. Ike though, nearly all of his moves are killing moves, and he can't combo. At least Roy could combo.
Roy's aerials had medium/high priority and were really his only source of combos. I think Ike will turn out fine, although I do think they made him to slow and powerful.
 

MattTheGameFreak

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Hmm.... I get these complaints from several people throughout. Mostly from the people I play against though. They quit on me time to time because I do these type of things to them. They call it cheap, I don't, I call it skill but yeah...
 

Cless

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Really, ok. I don't play with Roy, but I know that none of them kill very well except the second slash of his nair I think maybe.
 

MattTheGameFreak

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Cless, maybe its just me but after forty plus hours with Roy, I can freakishly kill people in three or so moves from the starting point of 0%. To clarify a bit, people complain about my Roy use as I never let people land.

On a side note, Roy's aerial attacks can Ko and if not, they sure do set the field up for a finisher. Roy's up-b jump, one time when playing by myself star-koed Jigglypuff from 10% or so health. Must have been a glitch but still, it hurts and is quite effective. (I'm getting a bit off subject here... x.x)

[This response is taking forever as it won't post!]
 

handsockpuppet

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Really, I thought it sent them kinda up. Well, shows how much I know.
it does, if you don't sweetspot it. the sweetspot is just behind him and just below him.

Cless, maybe its just me but after forty plus hours with Roy, I can freakishly kill people in three or so moves from the starting point of 0%. To clarify a bit, people complain about my Roy use as I never let people land.

On a side note, Roy's aerial attacks can Ko and if not, they sure do set the field up for a finisher. Roy's up-b jump, one time when playing by myself star-koed Jigglypuff from 10% or so health. Must have been a glitch but still, it hurts and is quite effective. (I'm getting a bit off subject here... x.x)

[This response is taking forever as it won't post!]
well if you talking about the reverse blazer, then everyone knows about that. they really aren't a finisher, all they are are damagers and settups. you say that you play Roy a lot, but do you ever go to tournaments. it sounds to me that all you do i play n00b friends and CPUs.
 

fire_wulf

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Holy Cow... i've been a Marth from the start.. And a Roy smasher just to mix things up.. But i didn't get serious until last year... Thats when i got really good with Marth and strayed away from Roy
 

Hong

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I can say from being a competitive Roy that no one with any decent DI is going to die from three attacks. I can also say only his n-air is good for pushing people off, but it'll never kill at reasonable percentages. Roy is capable of kills below 100% with Flare Blade edgeguard or a fsmash center on some characters at around 70% though. Neither is as promising as one may think.

Roy and Ike are very, very different. Roy could actually do some really cheap dtilt to edgeguard/death combos. Ike, however, will never be able to do this. No matter how much he is improved, he will be a character based on slow attacks and using few blows to defeat his opponents. Heck, I got this idea ever since I saw his first DOJO!! update.
Try for a single-stroke finishing blow with his mighty blade!
 

MattTheGameFreak

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Hmm... 40 hours(I recounted and my time with Roy is around 51 hours) is a lot of hours out of a total of 200 hours of gameplay put into Melee.

I think my friends are very capable. They are more capable than computers, most of them anyway. But yes, it is possible to be killed by Roy easily by a measely three or so attacks. Maybe five but its around the three to five mark. How do I do it? A variation of three different attacks, it just depends on the situation. For most part, you just overwhelm your opponent with these attack patterns that I've become adept to and they'll likely never return to consciousness allowing for an easy kill. I could never honestly tell you the exact variation due to the fact that I just do it as I play, instinct.

Fighting with Roy against Marth is annoying though as Marth's counter can seeminly come out of no where and work.

However, I do see why people state that Ike will never be able to combo., I however disagree to an extent. I do see combo poential in Ike. I truly do.
 

Cless

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I still think the people that you play suck. I will continue to think so unless you start going to tournaments or have people that go to tournaments play you. They must suck if they can't get around your doing the same attacks over and over.

Fighting Marth with Roy is annoying because almost everything Marth has is better than Roy.

Why do you see combo potential in Ike? Explain your stance.
 

MattTheGameFreak

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Cless, it is hard to explain combo potential, I think. Without playing him(even the people whom have played him 2 minutes are not experts ya know?) but however... I can lead you into imagination lane with two links.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121575
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121539

I'm sure you have seen those, however. Despite Ike being slower than Marth or Roy for instance, I've watched about every Youtube video I could find on Ike, over and over and some people were able to dominate and combo with Ike to an accelerated degree with their given and limited two minutes. However, most people didn't do so hot.

If you watch many of the videos he has been recorded in and look at those movesets observed by GenG and Conformal_Invariance, I think your imigination could give you a pretty good ideas. If I were to say specifics now and if I by chance was wrong, I'd look like an idiot, wouldn't I?(If I don't already? 0.o)
 

Cless

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I dunno. Assuming there is some sort of DI, I just can't see him doing more than a two hit combo tops. I'm not going to go off of the E for All videos for Ike combos because most of the players there were probably casual players who could fight their way out of a wet paper bag. They probably could have either fast fallen to the ground and shielded, air dodges any of his moves, or DI's out of it assuming there is still DI (I can't fathom why there wouldn't be).
 

Jisike

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Jisike = Fierce
I can say from being a competitive Roy that no one with any decent DI is going to die from three attacks.
Tell that to Fox... but i know what you mean :)

Anyway, people need to stop comparing ike to roy, because roy is NOWHERE near as powerful as ike, NOWHERE near as slow, and plays NOTHING like him.

And its obvious that the topic creator has very little idea what he is talking about....
 

MattTheGameFreak

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Hmm... Now is that so? We are all speculators as of now, I don't think there is a soul on these forums that has more than ten minutes with Ike and ten minutes isn't a lot with any character.

I never directly compared Roy with Ike. I however did bring up some comparative examples for theories sake. Reasons to not judge so harsh, peer say.

My example never has or had the intentions of comparing the two side by side as they are not the same. However, time is a similarity as well as setting and control.

To state that I do not know much is to state the same to yourself as none of us has had extensive time with the game, we're all following the same sources unless someone is keeping a secret from me that is well hidden.
 

Hallowed Storm

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Hey, Matt... I completely agree with you.
I know a lot of people say Ike is too slow to be good; and I actually do believe that he is, too.
But you brought up a good point. There's no saying whether Ike will be bad if you practice with him. I think that if people were VERY serious about using Ike, and they really did try and put practice into using him, they could pull it off.

He might not be the best character, but he's definitely worth trying to master.
 

Takeshi245

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Lol at the Prima Dona Ike defenders.

Seriously, just stop trying to argue against people.
Lol I know, right? I wouldn't be suprised if the Ike forums turned into the Roy forums. Roy is garbage, people. Ike is even worse in the demo due to his pre and post lag and his horrendous speed on the majority of his attacks. Unless he get speed buffs, which I'm hoping for, Ike will suck. That is absolute.
 

Windlord

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wow... yeah 40 hours is nothing. I dunno how you found out how many hours you played with him, but I have 15,000 KO's with roy, and thats after I replaced my old smash disc last year and started fresh with a new save file. so multiply those Ko's by 6 cus I've been playing with roy since it came out.

with that in mind... if you can kill your friends in 3 hits either...
1) they are having a REALLY bad day
2) they REALLY suck

Given the fact that they quit becasue you killed them with the counter, or him them with 3 airs then I'm more inclined to believe the later. You you can take pause off so the can't quit...

anywho rather than trying to defend Ike myself and hoping they change him, I'm doing my best to prepare for the Ike everyone is observing. That's why I added Ganondorf and Bowser to my list of mains.

I'm not a huge tourney attender, although I do have enough experience to know that my friends and I don't suck, we aren't to the point where this is a serious matter of life and death how Ike moves. We play to have fun and we normally don't fight people other than th 6 of us that play in our town. (That'll change with brawl's online)
 

handsockpuppet

Smash Lord
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iunno...maybe he's just so amazingly good he can KO people with 3 moves without using SHFFLS or a decent character. and perhaps he doesn't go to tournements because he's just too good.[/sarcasm]
 

Hong

The Strongest
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I can beat my foe in three moves.

1) Knock on the floor/wall and say someone is at the door for them so they pause the game.
2) Unpause it using their control and unleash a fully charged Flare Blade.
3) Taunt. HAVE TO HAVE THE TAUNT.
 

Black Waltz

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/omg new roy forum turf!! ima get 5150 brb.
and for the record, roy CANNOT do 3 aerials in the air. its 2 at the most.
and ike will pretty much suck. deal with it.
 

GenG

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I can beat my foe in three moves.

1) Knock on the floor/wall and say someone is at the door for them so they pause the game.
2) Unpause it using their control and unleash a fully charged Flare Blade.
3) Taunt. HAVE TO HAVE THE TAUNT.
You have to taunt in real life. Like, dancing.
 
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