The Sheik MU Discussion

[FE_Hector]

Alright, so instead of a ridiculously long rant in this first post, I thought it would be a better idea to compile the information we've thrown out about the MU so far. Let me know what you think and if anything needs to be added.

Neutral:

• Catch bad dash attacks and flubs, mostly with grabs (watch M2K sets and you'll understand)
• Hold your ground and zone with dtilt, fair, and nair (Don't commit to aerials. In-place/fading are preferable)
• Remember that uthrow is an amazing tool. Uthrow -> utilt is guaranteed around 21%, and after that you can uair juggle or move her towards the edge with fair/nair
• DD well and punish hard

Edgeguarding:

• Focus on forcing her to use Vanish to get onstage and then punish her massive landing lag.

General:

• Always cherish your second jump
• Don't get greedy-- go for what you're comfortable with and don't overextend
• Mix sure to mix up your DI and techs.

 

[Xianos]

It would be really nice if we could get a thread going for the Marth vs Sheik, its honestly one of the most frustrating matchups as a marth main and I'd love to get some more knowledge dropped on it

@Dr Peepee was just at EVO, so after he has some time to rest maybe he can give us some info considering how he manhandled plup in top 8

 

[FE_Hector]

Good point. I really needed a place to drop everything I think of the MU, so I thought getting this would be a good idea. I'm open to additions, ideas, and critiques.

 

[AirFair]

Marth has better tools to keep sheik away from him. Neutral game, you just want to catch bad dash attacks and flubs. There is no guaranteed way to do this except to just hold your ground and zone with dtilt and fair/nair. When you do aerials in neutral, it's important to control yourself in the air. When people do dashing/running aerials as Marth, they drift so far forward it comes off as making a huge commitment, which you don't want. If you are going to aerial, at least do it in place or fading in or out.

Grabs are amazing. Techchasing up til about 17-20% is good if you use fthrow and dthrow. Uthrow utilt is guaranteed at around 21% (it's the only percent I have memorized from Kadano's guide, but there are more instances) and once you have her above you, you can just swat sheik around with nair and fair.

Edgeguarding is mainly forcing Sheik to recover onstage, and punishing her enormous recovery lag. UpB, utilt, and tipper are some examples of good punishes.

There is so much more that I don't know however. But I believe that this is a kind of a good place to start.

TLDR:
Neutral = zone with dd and somewhat neutral aerials.
Techchase at low %s
Uthrow is the best grab, unless you can throw her offstage
Force her on stage to edgeguard

 

[FE_Hector]

As far as some of that goes, I just realized that some of my tips (like how I play the neutral game), tend to be based a lot off of how my bro plays Sheik. If I DD near him, he tends to dash attack so its hitbox gets most of my DD range. That's not a pro option imo, so I'll remember to keep that open.

 

[DeadPigeon]

dtilt is soooo good

 

[FE_Hector]

Agreed. My issue is that dtilt doesn't add on that much damage and can't be comboed that well. Still, how fast it comes out and how much you can use it as a surprise move does make it quite nice.

 

[Yokubou]

Marth-Sheik is definitely an even matchup, just a lot easier for Sheik at a low to mid level.
Key points imo:

• Dash dance well and punish mistakes - Marth has a much better neutral
• Be patient at low %, get your % 1 d-tilt at a time (grab is best punish)
  
• Don't jump mindlessly or do full Leroy Jenkins approaches with aerials (in any matchup) - in place or fading nairs/fairs
  
• Always, always, always cherish your double jump
• Get her in the air (u-throw, u-tilt) and juggle her with u-airs (nair is good for getting her offstage at high %); she's even worse than Marth when getting juggled
• Edgeguard with your back pointing offstage (bair > fair)
  
• Always cover ledge. It's Sheik's best option and you can punish if she lands on stage with up-b

 

[DeadPigeon]

Agreed. My issue is that dtilt doesn't add on that much damage and can't be comboed that well. Still, how fast it comes out and how much you can use it as a surprise move does make it quite nice.

I don't know if it leads into any true follow ups but dtilt connecting will often get you a grab, fair, or at the very least an improved stage position. It also does 8-10% depending on the hitbox that connects, which is fairly significant.

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't know if it leads into any true follow ups but dtilt connecting will often get you a grab, fair, or at the very least an improved stage position. It also does 8-10% depending on the hitbox that connects, which is fairly significant.

I know the damage it can deal and I know it's advantages, I'm just discouraging relying on it.

 

[AirFair]

It's better not to just blindly dtilt unless you know why and how to use it. From my experience, dtilt is meant to catch your opponent's footing during neutral and is best used as an opportunity to take stage and grab or aerial. It's not guaranteed for followups however. Best thing to do is to be more reactive with your initial dtilts to see what they do after being hit/poked (jump,roll,dash back,etc.) and then try to pressure them with some threatening dashes.

Dtilts greatest strength is that it can be canceled as soon as frame 20. run cancel dtilt dashdance. wd dtilt dashdance. Poking has never been so fluid.

 

[DeadPigeon]

It's better not to just blindly dtilt unless you know why and how to use it.

You could say that about anything though. In my opinion, the best way to learn how to use a move is to do it over and over till you figure it out.

 

[-ACE-]

Having a good neutral game starts with understanding sheik's options fully, so that you know what is safe and what isn't. Marth's DD can bait anything if you're intelligent with it and crisp. Your jc grabs have to be very crisp also.

If she fairs your shield late, don't get too greedy and try to shieldgrab. WD backwards oos or retreating tipper fair oos is much better. Don't let her bait your grab and dd grab you.

If you shield a spaced, yet early fair (hits near the top of your shield) you can shield DI in (quickly hold down and in) and grab. Same for shielded ftilts.

CC grab when you can. I wish I knew all the percents it worked at for her moves.

And of course, DI away or down and away in the correct situations. Don't give her free combos OR edgeguards.

 

[FE_Hector]

Everybody knows to watch out for her fairs, but here's when they're the worst: after an ftilt. If you're near the edge and get tilted, or if certain moves hit you, it's very easy for Sheik to KO you with a good fair, especially starting around 70% because of the weird way it hits you downwards. I've tried and tried and tried and tried to escape these fairs, and my solution.... is that it's impossible off of only DI. If you DI in or out, Sheik can pretty easily react and land that dumb fair regardless. And this is why everybody says save your second jump. If you remember to save your second jump for situations exactly like these, you could turn the tables and jump over her fair, spiking in the process. Like a lot of crap tricks you can pull on Sheik, it requires practice, but it's super useful.

EDIT: I'm going to take some time tomorrow or the next day to get in a lot of our more general tips for the MU. Basically a series of shorter bullet points that I'll keep editing in. If people want to know the rationale, they can look through the entire thread, but I think that if they want quick tips, having a lot of simple tips in the first post should help a lot.

 

[-ACE-]

DI the ftilt away.

 

[FE_Hector]

As said, I can't escape his fair traps on DI alone. Next time we fight, I'll film it so you get an idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[-ACE-]

For ftilt, yes you can. Dthrow to fair is given on DI away, but ftilt/dtilt/weak bair to fair is not. DI is your tool to avoid combos and not give her easy edgeguards. It works wonders lol.

If she likes to jab + grab you at low%, if you read the jab just hold down + in and jc grab for a free grab.

 

[FE_Hector]

The thing is that he varies combos. In the end, if I get out past the ledge above the abyss and he's on the same quarter of the stage as I am, I know the only way to avoid it is using my second jump. It's an odd situation that I can't really describe easily.

ALSO, the first post has been edited. Additions to what we've discussed so far would be much appreciated.

 

[-ACE-]

There's something you're missing but if you post a vid ppl will help you find it.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'll be able to fight my bro in a day or two. It typically comes up in a set, so I'll be sure to film.