The Optimal Smash 5

[SageX3]

• Recently I've been getting bored of Smash 4. While the increase in mods has made me play it more overall I find myself just going back to Melee and PM. I don't think it's too early to discuss Smash 5. So in this thread I want to discuss how to make Smash 5 the perfect Smash game. From ease of access to the advanced tech. While I know this will create a huge flame war between Smash 4 fans and Melee fans I still want to see if we can make a comprise i want to start off with the big things first then move on to subtle changes.
• In my opinion I say L canceling and directional air dodging should return. My reason for this is because it gives Smash 5 and added layer of depth and a higher skill ceiling while still maintaining ease of access to newcomers. The main argument against these mechanics is that they give an unfair advantage to people. Which is completely false. First off everyone has access to these techniques. Second off these techniques aren't necessary to play the game. You can enjoy the game casually with no reduction in the fun factor. And the removal of these techniques would only hurt the game's depth. After all these are 2 main factors that allowed Melee to survive for so long. Now onto another big factor, the ledges.

• Ledge mechanics are crucial as they can make the game more or less punishing. While ledge hogging allowed stocks to go by faster and allow you to edge guard your opponent effectively. It causes a lot of problems for newcomers. One complaint that Brawl had was that it was impossible to recover. In Smash 4 they fixed this a bit too much, if that makes sense. What I'm saying is that they made recovering too easy in Smash 4. Because of the new ledge mechanics and buffed recovery Smash 4 was too easy to recover in. I say that we keep the great recovery of all the characters but we bring back ledge hogging. And you don't have invincibility on a second grab and you are open to ledge trumping. That way ledge stalling is eliminated.
• Let's get riiiiiiiight into the roster. I won't list all characters that should return or which newcomers should be added. Instead I will Voice my opinion on clones. I think clone should be home, except for Doc. Mario and Dark Pit because they make since to be a clone. But there is NO reason for Ganondorf to be a clone of Captain Falcon. Also if Lucina and Roy are to return they HAVE to get a unique moveset that isn't a DIRECT copy of Marth.

That is all I can think of right now. So please voice your opinion and feel free to oppose mine. Help this get popular so we can make the perfect Smash game.

 

[FalKoopa]

I'm moving this to the NintenZone as Smash 5 discussion isn't allowed here.

 

[SageX3]

I'm moving this to the NintenZone as Smash 5 discussion isn't allowed here.

Ok

 

[FalKoopa]

So, anyway, while I'm here, let me address your points.

• Afaik, the main criticism of L-Canceling is that it adds an unnecessary skill barrier, but not much depth. In other words, there is no thinking involved in it - there is no situation in the game where you shouldn't L-Cancel. Some have suggested uniform lag reduction across the board, and I find that more preferable.
• I didn't like how air dodges in Melee made you helpless afterwards, really.
• I like Smash 4's ledge trumping. I found edge hogging a bit unfun to watch, and I welcomed the change. I can't say I ever felt that all characters have great recoveries though. Edge hogging affects tether dependant and heavy characters more, so Smash 4's mechanic benefitted them more.
• The roster is such a broad topic and serious business for many that it is better off in a different thread (and there are already threads which address that.) I'll leave it at that.

 

[Deleted member]

You know... I never liked edgehogging, and when I saw Smash 4 add ledgetrumping, I thought it was the greatest idea in Smash in a long time. Well, after playing in tourneys for a bit, I think it extends matches a bit too long and would like a happy medium as you stated. I like your idea of returning edgehogging, but removing the ability to grab the ledge endlessly for invulnerability (like how Smash 4 does it) and you lose it on the second grab I feel would be the best of both worlds and I do like your idea there.

L cancelling I feel is a deterrent to many players and is not something the newer generation of players will enjoy. As FalKoopa stated, it adds an unnecessary executional barrier whilst adding no depth and no true interaction. There are enough advanced techniques such as teching, power shielding, etc and something like that just is unnecessary.

I would actually prefer the Directional Air Dodge as I don't like Air Dodges in Smash 4 because they can be spammed endlessly without a real stop to them. It also makes off stage gameplay way too time consuming combined with the ledge mechanics in Smash 4. I also feel it makes the game slower on the stage, and that Directional Air Dodge leaving you in a helpless state makes you pick and choose your dodge accordingly for the right scenario, and can even help with recovery mind games. If that were to ever return, I do not want Wavedashing to return as I do not care for the mechanic personally.

 

[ElectroLightning]

You know... I never liked edgehogging, and when I saw Smash 4 add ledgetrumping, I thought it was the greatest idea in Smash in a long time. Well, after playing in tourneys for a bit, I think it extends matches a bit too long and would like a happy medium as you stated. I like your idea of returning edgehogging, but removing the ability to grab the ledge endlessly for invulnerability (like how Smash 4 does it) and you lose it on the second grab I feel would be the best of both worlds and I do like your idea there.

L cancelling I feel is a deterrent to many players and is not something the newer generation of players will enjoy. As FalKoopa stated, it adds an unnecessary executional barrier whilst adding no depth and no true interaction. There are enough advanced techniques such as teching, power shielding, etc and something like that just is unnecessary.

I would actually prefer the Directional Air Dodge as I don't like Air Dodges in Smash 4 because they can be spammed endlessly without a real stop to them. It also makes off stage gameplay way too time consuming combined with the ledge mechanics in Smash 4. I also feel it makes the game slower on the stage, and that Directional Air Dodge leaving you in a helpless state makes you pick and choose your dodge accordingly for the right scenario, and can even help with recovery mind games. If that were to ever return, I do not want Wavedashing to return as I do not care for the mechanic personally.

 

[SageX3]

So, anyway, while I'm here, let me address your points.

• Afaik, the main criticism of L-Canceling is that it adds an unnecessary skill barrier, but not much depth. In other words, there is no thinking involved in it - there is no situation in the game where you shouldn't L-Cancel. Some have suggested uniform lag reduction across the board, and I find that more preferable.
• I didn't like how air dodges in Melee made you helpless afterwards, really.
• I like Smash 4's ledge trumping. I found edge hogging a bit unfun to watch, and I welcomed the change. I can't say I ever felt that all characters have great recoveries though. Edge hogging affects tether dependant and heavy characters more, so Smash 4's mechanic benefitted them more.
• The roster is such a broad topic and serious business for many that it is better off in a different thread (and there are already threads which address that.) I'll leave it at that.

I can get why you don't like going into a helpless state after air dodging and I suppose many other people don't like it either. So what about this, you should be able to airdodge and and not go into a free fall state, but you should only be able to airdodge once in the air and there is a start-up for air dodging . I say this so people can air dodge to throw off their opponent but you can't spam it.

You know... I never liked edgehogging, and when I saw Smash 4 add ledgetrumping, I thought it was the greatest idea in Smash in a long time. Well, after playing in tourneys for a bit, I think it extends matches a bit too long and would like a happy medium as you stated. I like your idea of returning edgehogging, but removing the ability to grab the ledge endlessly for invulnerability (like how Smash 4 does it) and you lose it on the second grab I feel would be the best of both worlds and I do like your idea there.

L cancelling I feel is a deterrent to many players and is not something the newer generation of players will enjoy. As FalKoopa stated, it adds an unnecessary executional barrier whilst adding no depth and no true interaction. There are enough advanced techniques such as teching, power shielding, etc and something like that just is unnecessary.

I would actually prefer the Directional Air Dodge as I don't like Air Dodges in Smash 4 because they can be spammed endlessly without a real stop to them. It also makes off stage gameplay way too time consuming combined with the ledge mechanics in Smash 4. I also feel it makes the game slower on the stage, and that Directional Air Dodge leaving you in a helpless state makes you pick and choose your dodge accordingly for the right scenario, and can even help with recovery mind games. If that were to ever return, I do not want Wavedashing to return as I do not care for the mechanic personally.

Why don't you like wavedashing?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

L-canceling has no point other than adding a barrier that doesn't add anything to gameplay. You never not want to L-cancel, so why is it optional? Reducing landing lag around the board is a better solution.

but you can't spam it.

If you're letting them spam airdodge then that's on you, not them.

This isn't Brawl. Spamming airdodge is one of THE bad habits of Smash 4. Along with rolling to much.

 

[SageX3]

L-canceling has no point other than adding a barrier that doesn't add anything to gameplay. You never not want to L-cancel, so why is it optional? Reducing landing lag around the board is a better solution.


If you're letting them spam airdodge then that's on you, not them.

This isn't Brawl. Spamming airdodge is one of THE bad habits of Smash 4. Along with rolling to much.

Thanks for the input but the L cancel thing has been said already. The reason why spam air dodging is bad because, although punishable, ultimately slows down the game and breaks combos.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

ultimately slows down the game and breaks combos.

So does spotdodging, DI, sheilding, zoning and rolling. That's a quality of any defensive option.

If its easily punishable and puts them in a very bad situation if they mess up while not being over centralizing to the point where its the only defensive option used, then what is the problem?

In Brawl, airdogdes were a problem because they reduced knockback. In Smash 4, that no longer happens.

 

[SageX3]

So does spotdodging, DI, sheilding, zoning and rolling. That's a quality of any defensive option.

If its easily punishable and puts them in a very bad situation if they mess up while not being over centralizing to the point where its the only defensive option used, then what is the problem?

In Brawl, airdogdes were a problem because they reduced knockback. In Smash 4, that no longer happens.

Good point. At a top level air dodging becomes risky because they are more likely to read you, but at the lower levels of play where you aren't very good air dodging can be a huge pain to deal with.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Good point. At a top level air dodging becomes risky because they are more likely to read you, but at the lower levels of play where you aren't very good air dodging can be a huge pain to deal with.

So are and players at lower levels of play.

Besides, couldn't one say that multiple airdodges benefit lower levels of play considering they allow for more opportunities to escape?


I have a feeling you want the Melee style airdodge due to wavedashing and not the potential problems with multiple airdodges.

 

[SageX3]

So are and players at lower levels of play.

Besides, couldn't one say that multiple airdodges benefit lower levels of play considering they allow for more opportunities to escape?


I have a feeling you want the Melee style airdodge due to wavedashing and not the potential problems with multiple airdodges.

It can be benificial but if you're on the receiving end then it becomes maddening. I want it for wavedashing, yes. But I also mention in my reply to someone that I want it tweaked do you can airdodge once withowithout entering free fall. That way you can escape a combo by mindgaming your opponent and potentially punish your opponent.

 

[Deleted member]

So does spotdodging, DI, sheilding, zoning and rolling. That's a quality of any defensive option.

If its easily punishable and puts them in a very bad situation if they mess up while not being over centralizing to the point where its the only defensive option used, then what is the problem?

In Brawl, airdogdes were a problem because they reduced knockback. In Smash 4, that no longer happens.

Because when combined with ledge trumping, it makes off stage killing far too difficult and thus makes the game a lot more time consuming whereas Smash 4 already has enough defensive buffs on stage such as shields, rolling, power shielding, and spot dodges that do that already. Off stage is far too safe right now imo. I mean, just increasing the recoveries as they did with this game was already enough.

Why don't you like wavedashing?

I tend to not like it cause a lot of characters don't benefit as much with it as others do due to the distance of a wavedash. If wavedashing was better balanced, then maybe.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because when combined with ledge trumping, it makes off stage killing far too difficult and thus makes the game a lot more time consuming whereas Smash 4 already has enough defensive buffs on stage such as shields, rolling, power shielding, and spot dodges that do that already. Off stage is far too safe right now imo. I mean, just increasing the recoveries as they did with this game was already enough.

I actually disagree with the air being too safe.

The meta is becoming more and more about edgeguarding as people are figuring out the new mechanics.

I say give it a bit of time for that.

 

[SageX3]

Because when combined with ledge trumping, it makes off stage killing far too difficult and thus makes the game a lot more time consuming whereas Smash 4 already has enough defensive buffs on stage such as shields, rolling, power shielding, and spot dodges that do that already. Off stage is far too safe right now imo. I mean, just increasing the recoveries as they did with this game was already enough.



I tend to not like it cause a lot of characters don't benefit as much with it as others do due to the distance of a wavedash. If wavedashing was better balanced, then maybe.

Ok so basically just have every character have the same wave dash length.

 

[FalKoopa]

My problem with wavedashing is the way it is executed - airdodging into the ground. If it was implemented as a proper mechanic with a more intuitive input, I'd welcome it.

 

[Freduardo]

I wouldn't call Roy a clone anymore. Different B Neutral, different A buttons, his Up B really doesn't work he same, nor does his counter.

He's a Luigi now.

 

[SageX3]

I wouldn't call Roy a clone anymore. Different B Neutral, different A buttons, his Up B really doesn't work he same, nor does his counter.

He's a Luigi now.

They still haven't touched his aerials yet. Other than that I suppose he is closer to a Luigi.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They still haven't touched his aerials yet.

Actually, his Down Air is completely unique.

 

[SageX3]

Actually, his Down Air is completely unique.

No it's the same down air as Ike

 

[Uchihadark7]

I made a thread on this type of thing a while back and I dont feel like retyping all of it here , so check it out and feel free to comment: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-ideal-smash-bros-game.432901/